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Wild maniac tables - adjustments?
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eugmac
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02-28-2010, 11:41 AM
Post subject: Wild maniac tables - adjustments?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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I visited a casino cardroom the other day and got absolutely caned - down 5.2BI. The stakes are £1-1 NL, £200 Max - but I sat with £100 the whole night.
The FR tables appear to be about ~2-4 Lag-tards who put in ridiculous amounts of money preflop (think: calling a 4-bet preflop with Q7s), couple total loose passive fish, maybe one nut camper, and maybe one or two uncreative TAGGs.
A good lot of them, particularly the LAGGs and TAGGs, tend to sit with around the max, with the total fish sitting with say 50bb, nut campers sitting with 100bb.
I played yesterday with 100BB the whole night, because that's my comfort zone - but because the high frequency of 3-bet pots preflop, I often felt like I was effectively playing 10BB deep!
Action often looks like the following, one of the maniacs comes in for a 5bb raise, multiple loose players call, and then another maniac comes in for a big reraise to 30BB. Very seldom does this 3-bet take down the pot - you can expect at least one caller, quite often 2. After this point, if two maniacs are in the pot together, it's just big bet chicken. At this table it appears to be pure spew to call behind with small PP and whatnot because of the fear of a big reraise coming.
I was also in the unfortunate place of sitting directly to the right of the maniacs, so I could never get position on them. In retrospect I certainly should have tried for a seat/table change.
So my questions on how I should adjust for such a table:
1) Optimal buy-in? Should I start buying in for max?
2) Preflop play - I have to ditch all implied odds hands except in exceptional circumstances, like when for once when we're playing a limped pot and i'm on the button? Where do we start drawing the line between a small pair that we play for pure set value that we often have to throw away, and a medium pocket pair that I can maybe 3-bet with to isolate a maniac? Is there a place here for slow-playing AA and KK? How often should I be 3-betting with two big unpaired cards like KQ, ATo?
3) Bankroll-wise, how large should I expect the swings to be?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,603
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to the right of maniacs is perfect short stack (sounds like that might be 100BBs here) spot, limp/call first raise, re ship over 3 bet, get paid. Once you double up it's probably hit and run time until you get more experience/BR. Maybe nit it up for 30 mins to make it look good if you play same folks a lot.
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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interesting - how does this compare to sitting to their left? are you saying that I should try to avoid all post-flop play altogether?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,603
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let's give you 150 BBs in the HJ, maniac is on the CO. You have KQ. 3 limps to you, you limp, maniac makes it 10 BBs and everyone calls, pot is 50 BB. Flop comes K T 7r. Now everyone will check to the maniac. Even though your position seems bad since the maniac is behind you, what has actually happened is you basically have the button because you get to see how the whole table reacts now. If people start jamming over the 3 bet guy, you can fold. But if they fold back around to you it's a easy ship, and you may even get called by way worse since he'll be getting 2/1 coming back.
you'll also often end up closing the action with great pot odds to draw or semi bluff depending on the action/hand.
If you flop a set yourself, you also trap people CRing the lag with 1 pair.
Now same scenario except you are the BU, the 'best' position, to the left of the maniac. Everyone still checks to the lagg, but you have to act first after him and if you flat/shove your TP you're going to run smack into the sets/two pair/AKs that were going for a CR.
It's absolute position (where the BU is) vs relative position (where the raiser is).
Now we stay to the left of the lagg and move the button one spot, and it's even worse. You are the SB and have to act first post flop AND have to act first after the maniac's action.
As you get deeper the edge will switch back to the lagg, because he'll be able to put you in tough spots on the turn and river.
If you're shorter, often you'll be able to use this same action pre flop, where you'll shove over with say top 5% after the maniac raises and everyone flats. Or make a big enough 3 bet that you can shove most flops
Check out Rolf Slootboom's Omaha books, esp the first one. He made a living short stacking to the right of maniacs.
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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thanks drmcboy, you couldn't have explained it clearer!
i'll be bearing all that in mind tonight...
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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Doc, that's one of the most brilliant posts I've read here...well, at least, it helped crystallize something that I had been tossing around in my head.
Typically, when I'm facing aggressive deepstack players, I request seat changes to get to their left. But being on their immediate left was seriously problematic for me in a few spots, especially if they straddle (as deepstacked aggressive players often do), effectively taking away my button every orbit.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Re-straddle that sonovabich
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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