|
LawDude
|
02-19-2009, 08:57 PM
Post subject: where I play and what I do
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
|
|
I play at the local L.A. casinos. Commerce, Bicycle, Hustler, and Hollywood Park. Mostly 4/8, 6/12, and 9/18 limit. Occasionally up to 20/40, or down to 3/6, if there's a crush of people at the tables. Some 1/2 $100 buy-in no limit at Hustler, the only local casino that offers a rational low-stakes no limit game.
I tend to like to play on weekday evenings, though I may stop by on a weekday morning or a Sunday.
My general approach is that making and relying on reads and having an accurate assessment of what other players are likely to do puts you ahead of 90 percent of the regulars at these places. The usual style of poker is what you might call high pot lottery ticket poker-- they get a lot of money into the pot and hope that they have the best hand at the river. Thus, simply playing a tight game will allow you to make many positive EV plays against these guys. (Watch out for the variance though! These guys suck out and crack your good made hands all the time.)
Physical tells, tilting, and bluffing all have their place, but are secondary to the basic process of understanding the players and what they are likely to do in reaction to your actions, and playing your cards accordingly.
(I also play on PokerStars online, but mostly for practice at low stakes.)
If any FTR people come out to LA, let me know. I'd be glad to show you around our local establishments. And if any FTR people are in LA and want to meet up, I'd be glad to buy you a cup of overbrewed casino coffee.
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Good NLHE Games in LA:
Hawaiian Gardens:
$3/$5 $300 max. Buy-in doesn't suck. Really soft game.
$5/$10 $1000 max. Amazing game if you have the roll. Many pots straddled. Not hard to get $300+ into the pot pre-flop.
Commerce:
$5/$10 $1500 cap
$10/$20 uncapped (heard they added a $60 button ante though, making the bankroll requirements pretty sick)
Ocean's Eleven:
$2/$3 $300 max: Good, soft game that plays like a Vegas $1/$2 game.
$5/$5 $1000 max: Some stronger players in the pool and they run a main game structure. If you can stay at the feeder table(s) it's a fish fry. Just be ready to play deep.
No $1 drop for no flop at O11 and I think the rake is overall a buck lower.
|
|
|
|
LawDude
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Good NLHE Games in LA:
Hawaiian Gardens:
$3/$5 $300 max. Buy-in doesn't suck. Really soft game.
$5/$10 $1000 max. Amazing game if you have the roll. Many pots straddled. Not hard to get $300+ into the pot pre-flop.
Commerce:
$5/$10 $1500 cap
$10/$20 uncapped (heard they added a $60 button ante though, making the bankroll requirements pretty sick)
Ocean's Eleven:
$2/$3 $300 max: Good, soft game that plays like a Vegas $1/$2 game.
$5/$5 $1000 max: Some stronger players in the pool and they run a main game structure. If you can stay at the feeder table(s) it's a fish fry. Just be ready to play deep.
No $1 drop for no flop at O11 and I think the rake is overall a buck lower.
|
I'll check those out, Fnord, thanks. I need to make sure I'm rolled for them, though.  The variance in NL games in these parts is astounding.
My favorite (or least favorite) NLHE hand in a California casino: at Hustler, I was dealt pocket aces. A bunch of players limped. I raised to 4xBB + 1 for each additional limper, which was a total raise of like 9xBB, $18. Everyone calls, and one guy shoves his stack, I shove mine, in the end we had like 5 guys in the pot which was like $380.
One hand cracked my aces (I asked the other players whether they had anything and they didn't). One hand. The hand of the guy who originally shoved in response to my big pre-flop raise. The flop was something like Q-7-6, turn was a blank, and river was another 6. He turned over Q-6 offsuit. That's what he shoved with. Q-6. And the rest of the table just wanted to play for a big pot. God knows what they had.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LawDude
The variance in NL games in these parts is astounding.
|
Not if you can beat 100NL 6 max online or higher and make some simple adjustments. LHE swings are much worse for a comperable win-rate.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LawDude
I raised to 4xBB + 1 for each additional limper, which was a total raise of like 9xBB, $18.
|
Here is where you went wrong. I would go at least $25, probably $50. You will still get action.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LawDude
the rest of the table just wanted to play for a big pot. God knows what they had.
|
Standard. Why are you wasting your time at the limit table when people play this bad at the unlimited hold'them?
|
|
|
|
LawDude
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LawDude
The variance in NL games in these parts is astounding.
|
Not if you can beat 100NL 6 max online or higher and make some simple adjustments. LHE swings are much worse for a comperable win-rate.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LawDude
I raised to 4xBB + 1 for each additional limper, which was a total raise of like 9xBB, $18.
|
Here is where you went wrong. I would go at least $25, probably $50. You will still get action.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LawDude
the rest of the table just wanted to play for a big pot. God knows what they had.
|
Standard. Why are you wasting your time at the limit table when people play this bad at the unlimited hold'them? |
Strangely enough, I am able to control the variance (and thus my sanity) at limit tables. Yes, they bet like crazy, but once I get my reads together I have a pretty good sense of their ranges and whether I am ahead in the hand. And I can collect monster pots off my monster hands. For some reason, the maniacs drive me much more up the wall when they are shoving with marginal hands on a NL table. I can certainly play and win at NL on California tables, but I enjoy it less because (for me, anyway) the swings really are wilder. Put another way, even though there are less suckouts in no limit, any particular suckout can cost you a lot more (and thus get you a lot more pissed off about someone felting you while not knowing the first thing about poker) in NL.
Second, I find limit in many ways a more intellectually interesting game. It features more draws, more multi-way pots, more changes in hand strength, more river plays and showdowns. It just engages me more at the table than NL does. Many more of my decisions in limit are based on reads and relative hand strength and odds, whereas NL again is often a matter of getting priced out of my draws by some donkey bet. Now, I'd probably find a NL game that was more well played to be more intellectually stimulating (though I wouldn't make as much money playing it), but I just feel I wasn't placed on this earth to sit around waiting for hands that I can isolate a player against, getting all that player's chips into the pot, and then crushing them. Lather, rinse, repeat. At the stakes I play, limit forces me to think through all the aspects of the game more than no limit does.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
You must have some sick reads or are folding too much equity. In either case, limit doesn't give you the tools to really push an edge and makes you a slave to the pot size quite often. Unless you're playing a lot of 2-3 way pots.
I doubt $20-$40 live has less variance than $5/$10 or $5/$5 no limit and I think the NL games have higher win-rates.
I have a friend who is a limit specialist and he wonders if I ever run bad because it seems like every night I'm about even or cashing out up a couple racks.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Have you tried the Hawaiin Garden 8/16 half-kill game? I like it better than the Commerce 9/18 and will sometimes sit in with a friend for some relaxed low-stakes fun.
|
|
|
|
LawDude
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
You must have some sick reads or are folding too much equity. In either case, limit doesn't give you the tools to really push an edge and makes you a slave to the pot size quite often. Unless you're playing a lot of 2-3 way pots.
I doubt $20-$40 live has less variance than $5/$10 or $5/$5 no limit and I think the NL games have higher win-rates.
I have a friend who is a limit specialist and he wonders if I ever run bad because it seems like every night I'm about even or cashing out up a couple racks.
|
My reads are quite good for the stakes level, I think. Indeed, my reads are, I think, my best part of my game. A lot of people at the limit tables are shocked at the number of times I can show them down when they are c-betting nothing as well as my willingness to lay down when they have made hands or when they have my cards dominated. Bear in mind that this latter skill in particular is quite absent among most of the limit players I play with. You'd be amazed the number of times I will hear someone say "it's just another $8 / $12 / $18 to call" when they are totally aware that they are beat on the river. These guys think in terms of the absolute amount of money they have in the pot and not in terms of reads or ranges. I often feel as if I am the only one at the table who is really methodically gathering information about my opponents, and thinking through to the next move (i.e., what information am I conveying about my hand and what are Villains 1, 2 and 3 likely to do with it given their past play). Most of them are either just being mindlessly aggressive or passive or playing their hands without regard to what anyone else might have.
Yes, $20/$40 is much more aggressive than lower stakes, and I won't disagree that when you get to that level the variance is going to be much higher. Even there, though, there is way too much calling to the river, way too little willingness to fold hands, and way too many maniacs. For me, while there's plenty of variance in limit, I have only a couple of times thought a table was completely out of control, whereas I have had that feeling all the time playing NL in California. And yes, when I am at a table full of maniacs and can't get good reads, I will shift down to play very nitty (much the same way I will play when I am facing the usual gang of loose-aggressives in $100 NL at Hustler) or change tables. I keep meticulous records and I average grinding out a profit of about 9BB per hour of play at 4/8, 6/12, and 9/18. (The reason I don't play much 20/40 is because it is less profitable for me.)
I can certainly run bad in limit. Suckouts are more common. At a recent session, I was sucked out when I had pocket aces (CAPPED pre-flop) by 6-3 suited, which made a flush on the river. (Later I took the same guy for a ride with pocket kings which made a full house on a board with 4 cards of the same suit. These things can go both ways.) At another recent session, a player who called a capped heads up pot with J-10 offsuit against my aces was treated to a flop of 2-3-9, called a bet on the flop to see a turn that was a 7, RAISED and called a re-raise(!) on the turn to river an 8 for his straight. But for some reason, the fact that that sort of a play doesn't take ALL of my stack, just a fair portion of it, makes me more able to shake it off and avoid tilting.
And here's the thing about variance in moderate-stakes live limit. If you are playing competently, you will make a very strong hand (such as a flush or a straight with suited connectors or a set with a pocket pair or a strong two pair or an overpair or TPTK with ace-king) with significant frequency and will be able to build a huge pot just about every time you do it. As long as you watch the game carefully to gain a full understanding of how the Villains play their monster hands, you should be able to figure out whether you are ahead or behind most of the time when this happens. So if you are a good player, you really will know in these situations that, for instance, you are an 85 percent favorite to win a $125 pot that you are betting $12 into. You just need to know how to get the Villain's chips into the pot, and further understand that if Villain sucks out, you were making positive expected value plays that will pay off the next time you are in this situation. In no limit, you get priced out of more of your draws which means you see this situation less often.
So you use your reads to win small pots and control losses when other players likely have you beat and you don't have the pot or implied odds to continue, and then you try to get everyone's chips into the middle when you can crush them. And you use basic poker skills to ensure that the other players play for higher stakes and pay a premium to play those hands that you are most likely to win.
It works for me. And I make a nice supplement to my income doing it.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
We should meet up some time. Would love to GAMB00L with you.
|
|
|
|
LawDude
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
We should meet up some time. Would love to GAMB00L with you.
|
God, I hate that word. I hear it every time I am at the casino, usually before someone puts in some stupid donk bet or raise with a crappy hand. (Yes, I like that they are betting so stupidly. But I hate the word.)
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Something to consider, if you look at the people who make sick bank at this game, most of them have a lot of GAMB00L in them.
Well played poker spews every now and then and is a little unpredictable.
I've been here since the start of the rise of Party Poker and I'm still cashing out every month because I keep it fun.
|
|
|
|
kfaess
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 556
|
|
Quote:
|
I've been here since the start of the rise of Party Poker and I'm still cashing out every month because I keep it fun.
|
Hence the 17.8k posts. 
|
|
|
|
LawDude
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Something to consider, if you look at the people who make sick bank at this game, most of them have a lot of GAMB00L in them.
Well played poker spews every now and then and is a little unpredictable.
I've been here since the start of the rise of Party Poker and I'm still cashing out every month because I keep it fun. |
I do know what you mean, and I have HUGE admiration for the professionals who have enough command of the fundamentals of poker strategy that they can move onto inserting a sort of quasi-random variance into their games. It's just that you won't see too many of the people of the skill level to know when and how to execute a "GAMB00L!!!!" play at the tables I play at. Usually, it's people chasing almost hopeless cards and rationalizing the money that they are donating to another player (the word "donation" also comes up).
|
|
|
|
Micro2Macro
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,465
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by kfaess
Quote:
|
I've been here since the start of the rise of Party Poker and I'm still cashing out every month because I keep it fun.
|
Hence the 17.8k posts. |
The sickest part of Fnord's 17.8k posts is they're all really good quality. (Or at least the ones I have read, lol).
|
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
Linear Mode
