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pokerfan
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04-20-2009, 04:13 PM
Post subject: what to do when some LAGG put you all-in on the turn ?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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3 limpers including sunglass LAGG on the button. i raised up to $16 with KsQh from sb, fold, fold, villain called on the button. The guy was pretty loose, bet out tons of weak pairs or draws and stabbed at the uncontested pot. Effective stack is about $200. My image was tight but bluffed him twice and sucked out on river made flush once.
flop : Kh 8s 3c i bet $25 , he called without any hesitation.
turn : 5s i bet $50, he stared at my stack slowly and put me all-in.
fucking committed or not ??
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I don't think you're committed yet
I hate a call here, it feels so dirty.
How about checking to this guy on the turn instead? There may be an argument for going into pot control mode.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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is pot control mode optimal in live loose games in these situations when we flop TPNK against loose players and are forced to make some commitment decision?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Don't like the pre-flop raise.
Tough spot, against most players you're smoked here.
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GahGah604
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
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ya, there are so many better hands that will be dealt to other people when your in that position. Just call the blinds and then call a raise if your feeling good about it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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The biggest problem I have with the raise is that it will put us in difficult post-flop spots.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Don't like the pre-flop raise.
Tough spot, against most players you're smoked here.
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I totally agree about the pre-flop raise. If you think you have a lot of fold equity, that's one thing, as then when you combine the fold equity with the fact that KQo at least can play decently post-flop, you may have enough equity for a raise out of position.
But you are out of position. Big time! The small blind is a trap, because players way too often just think about the "discount" they are getting to play pre-flop without taking into consideration that they will be acting first the remainder of the hand.
So most of the time, both in limit and no limit, I am folding KQo from the small blind. I might complete in a multi-way pot if I believe the big blind won't raise (because then I have a hand that I can see the flop cheaply with and pump-or-dump after the flop), and I might raise if I think I have a lot of fold equity or if I can get into a shorthanded pot with what I think is going to be the best hand. But that's it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
So most of the time, both in limit and no limit, I am folding KQo from the small blind.
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Don't make me change your forum title to nit.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
So most of the time, both in limit and no limit, I am folding KQo from the small blind.
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Don't make me change your forum title to nit. |
Nits fold KQo rather than opening with it on the button. 
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Love2Race
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: South Florida
Posts: 38
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What about his range? Is he limping with small pockets or raising them with the button? Would he 3bet, or even limp for that matter, with AK? Any tells? A few of the players I've been playing live these last couple months LOVE to take previous bluffs/suckouts too personal and stackoff. They just cant wait to flip over there cards and shout "I can play your game too kid!"
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Since you baited me, Fnord. This was a fun one:
9/18 at the Commerce. Hero is in the SB with 6c3c. Button has been obviously blind stealing every time he is on the button, BB hasn't been defending, and the rest of the table is totally nitty.
Folds around to the button, who raises. Hero re-raises, BB folds, Button calls.
Flop is Kc6d2s
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
Turn is 6s
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls
River is 7h
Hero bets, Button calls.
Button turns over K4 offsuit. He never stole another blind all night.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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*yawn* bet the flop in the dark.
Better yet, wait for a little more of a hand before doing this, don't answer poor aggressive play with poor aggressive play.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
*yawn* bet the flop in the dark.
Better yet, wait for a little more of a hand before doing this, don't answer poor aggressive play with poor aggressive play.
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I was thinking about betting the flop in the dark. But I had watched one hand before where another player (who had since left the table) had challenged him and knew that when he got challenged, he doesn't fold. He continues to represent a big hand.
So I figured I'd raise with a hand with "possibilities", see if I could catch part of a flop, and then outplay him. 63 was a perfect hand because the types of flops it hits are outside the range that he would put a 3-better on.
One other aspect of doing it with a hand like 63. If you beat a guy like this with pocket aces or something, it doesn't slow him down at all. He figures he's ahead of most of your range with his raises. Playing back at him with a speculative hand is actually essential to the strategy.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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It's so rarely correct to check the flop after 3-betting the SB and getting called that you should do it 100% of the time for balance because fold equity alone justifies it. If you actually do it in the dark or not is a psychology thing.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It's so rarely correct to check the flop after 3-betting the SB and getting called that you should do it 100% of the time for balance because fold equity alone justifies it. If you actually do it in the dark or not is a psychology thing.
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Think about the context. I hit a piece of that flop. I don't think I have any fold equity on the flop anyway. Further, there's a good chance that he's missed and that I'm ahead in the hand (this wasn't true in this instance, but it was more than 50 percent likely to be true meaning I had positive equity against his range heads up). So I was looking for the right spot for my aggression. Until the 6 hit, I was considering a check raise on the turn. (Once the 6 hit, I decided to pretend I was on tilt and spewing, all angry that he was stealing blinds from me. I didn't win any Oscars, but I did get plenty of money into the pot. )
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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He doesn't have to fold often and the flop bet sets up a wildly profitable turn barrel.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Love2Race
What about his range? Is he limping with small pockets or raising them with the button? Would he 3bet, or even limp for that matter, with AK? Any tells? A few of the players I've been playing live these last couple months LOVE to take previous bluffs/suckouts too personal and stackoff. They just cant wait to flip over there cards and shout "I can play your game too kid!"
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he raised all pairs, big cards and other weak stuff. When this guy limped, he probably just had shit.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
He doesn't have to fold often and the flop bet sets up a wildly profitable turn barrel.
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The second part of this is a very valid point.
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