www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,247,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

what a difference a cardroom makes

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

LawDude

03-09-2009, 06:34 PM Post subject: what a difference a cardroom makes

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

I thought I'd post something underlining the importance of finding tables and even cardrooms that draw the type of players that you can play well against.

This past week I had a tremendously good run at Commerce's 9-18 and Hollywood Park's 8-16 tables. I also lost a ton playing at Hustler's 8-16. The thing is, this wasn't an issue of simple card death or variance (although things weren't helped at Hustler by one horrible beat I took, where I flopped a set of 5's, got a Villain all in by the turn, and then watched as he hit a 4 outer on the river turning his 2 pair of Kings and Jacks into a higher full house!). Rather, the players at Hustler were completely different-- and better-- than the players at Hollywood Park or Commerce. These guys were mostly tight-aggressive (except for the guy who went all in with his 2 pair, and he left quickly!)-- probably 1/2 the hands ended up chopping the blinds, and raises on the turn were especially common. They were great at reads-- one player in particular figured out that I had sets on 2 straight hands and folded good hands in both of them, even though I played the 2 sets completely differently. And I was curious enough about what I was seeing that before leaving I struck up some conversation with a couple of them-- it turns out that most of these guys are regulars at that level at Hustler (I had never played at an 8-16 table there before), and they basically consciously target any newcomer until they establish that the player is as good as they are. In other words, 8-16 at Hustler, at least on weekday evenings, is a shark tank.

This brought home a point that can't be made enough about live poker. If you are at a table with a bunch of people whose playing style or skill makes it difficult for you to win, get up! Request a table change. Move to a different stakes level if you need to. Try playing at another casino.

Speciifcally, the difference between the 8-16 game at Hustler, which is tight and well-played, and the 9-18 game at Commerce, which despite its higher stakes is basically a donk-a-thon, is the difference between night and day.

So much of winning poker is finding situations you can exploit and knowing when to leave situations that you can't.

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

AlKo4g7iC

03-16-2009, 02:08 PM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Toronto, Ontario , Canada

Posts: 25

yeah i would agree with Law i mean if your at a table where your losing for 6 straight hours for whatever reason may it be one of your bad days and your playing bad or your just getting bad luck and getting drawn out on just get up and play another day or switch tables if you realize your up against semi pro poker players. i my self love to challenge my self and although i have lost money at a table like this it is still a good way to get use to good players, bankroll management comes into play of course. i play poker for fun so my opinion is going to be different than others. i do play for the money of course but in the long run its something to do on the weekends for entertainment.

KRS ONE -- iLogiC -- knowledge reigns supreme -- **** the normal

XIIGermanIIX

03-16-2009, 02:28 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Shreveport LA

Posts: 10

My rule on that is... because i dont want to lose my entire bankroll for that day... is to get up, take one of my free buffets, go eat... chill out for an hour or 2, then come back and see if I have that same problem. The way I know I need to get up... is 2 bad beats in a 5 hand period. Or if everything that I do, is getting picked up by other players on the table. Then its time for me to get up and relax for a couple of hours... or just go home and try it another day.

LawDude

03-16-2009, 05:43 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by XIIGermanIIX

Actually, believe it or not, I don't look so much at bad beats. I took a couple of horrible beats early on yesterday, when my AA in a capped pot pre-flop lost to J8 offsuit when Villain rivered 2 pair after calling me all the way down with a pair of 8's and my AK flopped 2 pair lost to runner-runner flush by a player who called my check-raise on the flop with just a backdoor baby flush draw and no pair or straight draw. The reason I don't look at those is because I was not being outplayed on those hands-- I played fundamentally good poker and lost to suckouts. I ended up just losing a little bit on the day because I kept on playing well and had some good hands (including flopping AAQ with AQ, turning 4 aces, and getting called down to the river anyway!) that came my way later.

But the Hustler experience was completely different-- when I got my good hands, I found I couldn't make any money off them because these players' reads were so good that they wouldn't pay me off. And for the same reason, it was very difficult to make aggressive plays-- they were pretty good at knowing when to call a c-bet or call me down when I had a marginal hand.

I accept bad beats as the cost of doing business (of course, I complain about them too, but doesn't every poker player?

). But when you find that you can't make any money even when you get good cards, that's a sign that you need a table or casino change for sure.

drmcboy

03-16-2009, 06:53 PM

#5 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,603

Quote:

I complain about them too, but doesn't every poker player?

no and 3 bad beats stories in one thread should tell you something.

LawDude

03-16-2009, 07:19 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Quote:

I complain about them too, but doesn't every poker player?

no and 3 bad beats stories in one thread should tell you something.

I used to be a horseplayer. (I still am, I guess, though I don't go to the track nearly as much as I used to.) I knew some professional horseplayers who made decent money at it. And of course, plenty of amateurs who didn't.

The thing is, we ALL loved to tell stories of bad beats. Those of us who won and those of us who didn't. Horses who should have been disqualified but weren't. Horses who weren't disqualified who should have been. Horses who went down 50 yards from the wire. Races that were taken off the turf, screwing up a player's winning pick 6 ticket. Etc.

I carried that personality over to poker. There's something about sharing the frustration of some guy taking a bunch of your money despite playing absolutely stupidly that has a deep attraction to my soul. The thing is, I'd rather laugh and complain about these things than let them affect my poker game. But that's just my style. Others may certainly view things differently.

LawDude

03-16-2009, 07:36 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

One other thing about this. Because of the nature of a lot of live games in California casinos, bad beats are simply ridiculously common. For instance, there is actually a mentality that, far from forcing people out of the hand, multiple pre-flop raises are actually a great opportunity for players with trash hands, because they can play for a huge pot. When people start raising it's often "everybody into the pool". (My single favorite example of this was a $100 buy-in $1/$2 no limit table where I had been playing really tight, raised with pocket aces, and shoved in response to a 3-bet, only to see 4 other players also shove. The pot was won by the player who called my shove with Q6 offsuit and hit a full house on the flop.)

Similarly, people get bored and they love to chase their draws. Further, they don't know how much money is in the pot (online players take for granted the indicator on the screen of the exact amount in the pot, but in a casino, you have to count it and people are too lazy to do that and don't understand pot and implied odds anyway). Just the other day, I was sitting next to a guy who was outraged that I folded my pocket jacks to a check-raise on a flop by a tight player with A73 on the board. I said "there's an ace on the board, he's got another ace, 2 pair, or set, and the odds are 25-1 against my catching a jack on the turn". He just couldn't process that-- of course you have to chase that draw, how can you lay down such a good hand on the flop?(!)

So I have learned to adopt a stance of bemused detachment about these things, because back when I first started playing I got all Phil Hellmuth about them and found that it hurt my game. Cataloguing and laughing at them helps me avoid tilting. It also allows me to go back and think about them, make sure I really did play the hand correctly.

Different people, in different poker environments, may have different approaches to this issue.

sk8r_daniel

03-16-2009, 11:53 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2006

Posts: 330

Whatever you do, don't berate bad players! They will not want to play with you, and may even try to get better!

As for leaving when I am getting sucked out on... I find that it doesn't really effect my game and when I am getting in profitable situations than I am likely playing well and have a significant edge in that game. Why would I want to leave that game? Also, people may get the perception that you are easy money because you just lost 2-3 pots in a row.

LawDude

03-17-2009, 12:37 AM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel

I didn't berate the guy. The conversation went like this:

"Why'd you fold so quick to that check raise? What did you have?"

"I had pocket jacks"

"Dude, that's a great hand! You can't fold that to just $9 more!"

"He check-raised."

"So what?"

"He's a tight player. He had either aces, 2 pair, or a set, and I only had 2 outs."

[At this point, the guy I folded to is nodding his head and saying "yep".]

"But you could have drawn out and that is too good a hand to fold."

"I only had 2 outs on the turn. The odds are 25-1 against me making a set, and it's not worth calling given the pot size."

"But you can't fold! It's just another $9 and it's too passive!"

"He's not going anywhere, even if I reraise him. It's not passive to fold when you are behind and you have only 2 outs."

"OK, dude, whatever."

KoRnholio

03-17-2009, 12:41 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,166

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Educating them (or trying to) is even worse than berating :P You don't want this guy thinking twice about calling you down with an underpair next time you are up against him.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

LawDude

03-17-2009, 12:55 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Educating them (or trying to) is even worse than berating :P You don't want this guy thinking twice about calling you down with an underpair next time you are up against him.

I can outplay this guy with my eyes closed.

Seriously, there's another hand where I had pocket 10's in position and raised pre-flop, and this guy called my pre-flop raise.

Flop was JJ6. This guy had a habit of betting his 2 pairs on paired boards and checking his trips. He bet, so I put him on a 6 and raised, he called.

Turn is another J. Now I am convinced that I have him beat. He bets, I call.

River is a K. He bets again. Now MAYBE he has K6, but I am willing to take that chance. I hem and haw about 15 seconds, and then raise. At this point, he starts muttering to the guy next to him about how I must have AJ, and how he doesn't want to pay me off. True to form, though, he calls. I turn over my 10's. He shows his 6 to the guy next to him and mucks it. Says "why'd you raise with those 10's. I could have had a king or a jack". I reply "yeah, but you didn't" and smile.

AlKo4g7iC

03-17-2009, 12:38 PM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Toronto, Ontario , Canada

Posts: 25

i would honestly rather play a decent player than a garbage player who chases every draw without thinking

KRS ONE -- iLogiC -- knowledge reigns supreme -- **** the normal

LawDude

03-17-2009, 04:06 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlKo4g7iC

i would honestly rather play a decent player than a garbage player who chases every draw without thinking

Well, you make much more money off the garbage players. Especially in live games where there is a fixed rake (not a percentage), if nobody at all is making loose calls, it is simply impossible not to lose money.

But what garbage players do is increase your variance, and the way that this plays out can be frustrating in the short term. And in that sense, even though as a matter of pure odds I'd rather have them in the pot, it is nonetheless sometimes refreshing when, after a couple of hours of lottery ticket poker and bad beats, someone actually properly folds when they should and you are spared the seemingly-inevitable suckout.

Fnord

03-17-2009, 04:09 PM

#14 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

LawDude, are you familiar with the Schooling effect?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

KoRnholio

03-17-2009, 05:49 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,166

From what I can gather, the Schooling effect does exist, and there are times when multiple people call down without odds, that it does hurt your EV somewhat. But these instances are rather rare, and don't take a huge chunk out of your EV anyways.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

LawDude

03-17-2009, 06:30 PM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

As I understand it, there are three factors about multiple people calling you down:

1. The more people calling you down, the more likelihood that someone is actually doing it properly because they are ahead of you in the hand. This one is self-explanatory and is why we all play more cautiously when we get multiple callers (unless we have the nuts).

2. The more people calling you down, the more likelihood that one or more of them will have blockers that will prevent you from improving your hand. For instance, if you have AK on a board that is K84, and you are facing a guy who called your preflop raise with 74, if 2 other people are calling with Ax, they are blocking cards that could help you if the guy with 74 hits his 7 on the turn or the river.

and

3. The more people calling you down, the more likelihood that someone will be able to suckout. Let's say you have AsKs and the board is Kh8h6c, the more people still in the hand, the more likely that someone may have two hearts or a straight draw. Also, the more likely someone has a pair of 8's or a pair of 6's that will hit trips if another one hits the board or two pair if their other card gets paired. And further, the more likely that someone might be around to hit some more esoteric draw, like a runner-runner flush or straight or a gutshot.

So of course your expected value goes down as more people are in the pot. On the other hand, it is still positive. For instance, if you have pocket aces and 5 players call you pre-flop, that's far from ideal. However, you are still going to have the highest probability to win the pot, even if it's just 28 percent or something.

KoRnholio

03-17-2009, 08:59 PM

#17 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,166

From what I understand, you are a bit off. I can't remember which book it was in, but it had an example that made it fairly clear, but I can't recall it off the top of my head.

Basically, the schooling effect happens in multiway pots when player (or players) bad decision(s) actually costs you EV by making the pot large enough to make others call correctly.

The point is, yes you want people to chase their draws, but there are certain times when the incorrect plays swing a bad call into a good call. Like when you are playing live 3/6 and flop a gutshot in an unraised multiway pot. You are in late position in a 5SB pot and are about to fold (needing 11:1, minus/ignoring implied odds) when you see that the small blind bet out and was called in 4 spots, now giving you correct odds to chase.

Because you gained a chance to play correctly, someone else (usually whoever has the best hand at this point) is now losing out. And it was the players calling in between with marginal hands that caused this situation to happen.

This ties in heavily with the fundamental theorem of poker.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

LawDude

03-18-2009, 01:15 AM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

It may make the call correct but does it really affect your EV that much? The gutshot is still a gutshot, and Hero is still a 10 to 1 favorite to win that Villain's extra $6 bet . It looks to me like both bet and call are positive EV, because of all the dead money in the pot.

Fnord

03-18-2009, 01:49 AM

#19 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Poker is a zero sum game, so when someone makes a mistake someone else profits from that equity.

Lets say you got something like top pair on the flop and bet out. Tweedledumb with a gutshot calls. In a small enough pot they're making a mistake and you figure to make money from all the times they miss.

Now tweedlestupid calls with bottom pair. You get a lot of the mistake equity from tweedle stupid, but so does tweedledumb. Now dweedledumb is a little less dumb.

Tweedleretard calls with an over-card and some backdoor draws. Tweedledumb and tweedle stupid get more equity from his call.

Now Tweedledee comes in with a flush draw. He takes bunch of EVERYONES equity because he's drawing to a hand that crushes all of you even though he's a dog to top pair alone. Now you're left with a pretty thin equity edge. This is why somethimes it's better to pass on a thin edge on the flop in LHE in order to be able to make better turn decisions.

...on top of all of that, you'll probably pay off a bet when they hit and not as often get a bet when they miss.

That is schooling and why loose LHE games are so damn fustrating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-18-2009, 02:05 AM

#20 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

LawDude:

It's Asian Pride night at the Commerce.

5 Players limp to your button.

Which hands are you raising?
AKo
QTo
QTs
88
AQo
KQo
TT
AJo
A4s
56s

Which hands are you capping if someone cheers "ZOMG BIG POT!!!!!" and makes it 3 bets after limping in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

GahGah604

03-18-2009, 03:07 AM

#21 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 138

Fnord, your posts are very entertaining...one of the main reasons I come here is to learn and read your posts.

anyway, asian pride night hahahaha that is my local casino every night here in Vancouver. You know its bad when the white players like myself start swearing in chinese lol

LawDude

03-18-2009, 06:43 PM

#22 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Fnord, your posts are classic-- we have to play cards together at some point.

First, on schooling. Of course you are right about the EV going down. But I don't see how it can become negative. It just goes down.

Here's why. Hero is still a favorite over that flush draw (unless it has additional outs, which I will get to in a second). Schooling may make it possible for him to call, but mathematically, if you are a favorite heads up over every other hand that is playing, then your bet cannot be negative expected value, because you are getting at least 4-1 in a 5 hand pot (and you are actually getting more than that because of the blinds and pre-flop calls which are already in the pot) and you are less than a 4-1 underdog to win the hand.

Two complications. 1-- as I said above, if the "dummies" who are calling while behind have BLOCKERS, your expected value is lower. For example, if the board is T54 and you are betting with AT, but one of the callers has 32, he is blocking Hero from improving his hand with an ace. 2-- this analysis only applies if Hero in fact has a mathematically better chance of winning than the flush draw. Sometimes, players have so many outs that they actually have a better chance of winning the hand than the player currently leading has. Straight flush draws with overcards are one example of this.

But subject to those two caveats, "schooling" shouldn't make your EV negative, it should only reduce it.

Now, onto your hands. And bear in mind, this is subject to the stipulation that the 4 players who limped in are loose. If a tight player limps in, that sends an entirely different signal to me.

I raise pre-flop in limit for 2 reasons-- because I have the best chance of winning the hand, and/or to induce other players to fold. On "Asian Pride" night, I suspect the implication is nobody's folding to a pre-flop raise. (I'm not sure that's much different than most nights, but whatever.)

So I want to raise hands that are ahead of the limpers' likely range and which will at least play decently in multi-way pots.

I raise 99-AA on the button almost routinely, so TT is a raise (though a marginal one).

88 is a set-mining hand in this situation, and QTs and 56s are suited connectors. I call on those hands.

A4s is problematic. It can make the nut flush and a huge pot, but it isn't very much value as a low kicker ace unless nobody else has one. Call.

AKo, AQo, and AJo are all way ahead of most of the limpers' range. If an ace hits, I may collect a ton off a player with a lower kicker. Raise.

KQo is a trouble hand. I'd much rather play it heads up against someone who I suspect has a low pocket pair or a Kx or Qx. Against multiple players, it doesn't play that well. I tend to fold it, but I might call with position. If I can open with the hand from position, I sometimes raise with it, but not here.

QT offsuit is a trash hand. The only times I ever play it (outside of the big blind) are when I am betting the player, not the hand. Insta-fold.

Fnord

03-18-2009, 09:03 PM

#23 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

My Answers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

5 Players limp to your button.
Which hands are you raising?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

AKo

Raise for value. AKo is still a fairly strong multi-way hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

QTo

Call, weaker offsuit broadways don't play well mutli-way, but we have enough hand and position to take a flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

QTs

EASY value raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

At a passive table, raise for the thin equity edge and for a chance to take a free turn card. At a more wild table this is an easy flat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

AQo

Enough equity edge to raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

KQo AJo

Not enough equity to raise. However, I might raise them from the CO to limit the field and get the Button to fold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Value raise. TT is too good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

A4s

After 5 limpers this is a thin value raise and to build a pot so you get lots of correct calls that feed your nut flush draw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

56s

Call, not enough equity to raise as a lot of your draws aren't to the nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Which hands are you capping if someone cheers "ZOMG BIG POT!!!!!" and makes it 3 bets after limping in?

Everything I would raise on the button I'm happy to go 4 bets with if I wanted to go 2. Except I might flat the eights, but it probably will get capped anyway so GAMB00L.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-18-2009, 09:08 PM

#24 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

OK, I forgot to answer on the capping. I am very much a nit on capping. I think capping with a marginal hand is stupid, because nobody who has 3-bet or called a 3-bet is folding to a cap. So you aren't getting anyone out of the hand. This means you HAVE to have the best hand pre-flop for capping to be a positive EV play. PERIOD. And that means that unless you are confident enough to know that the other players don't have KK or AA, you shouldn't be capping with anything other than those hands.

Sorry if that makes me a nit. But the math backs me up on that one.

(By the way, I capped a 5-way hand with KK pre-flop last night, bet and raised all the way through the hand, and won a $440 pot when my kings held up.

)

Fnord

03-18-2009, 09:18 PM

#25 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawDude

This means you HAVE to have the best hand pre-flop for capping to be a positive EV play. PERIOD.

This isn't true. Particularly when the 3rd bet is put in by someone who figures to have a worse hand and is only trying to build a big pot because big pots are fun. Also, in multi-way pots quite often the best two hands are getting the best of it when more money is put in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-18-2009, 09:24 PM

#26 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

LawDude:

Read this and stop being such a nit!
http://www.fekali.com/izmet/2006/tho...with-the-fish/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-18-2009, 09:36 PM

#27 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawDude

This means you HAVE to have the best hand pre-flop for capping to be a positive EV play. PERIOD.

I don't doubt that the capper, even if he has the 2nd best hand, is getting some of the value from the other players who just want to be in the big pot. But the problem is that he is still giving away a lot of value to the player with the best hand.

And remember how these hands are won. Either one of two things happen:

1. The best hand holds up.
2. A speculative hand catches the needed cards.

I'd actually rather be in one of these pots with a speculative hand than the 2nd best pre-flop hand.

As for the other piece, I will read it (it's a long piece). But bear in mind, part of the reason I often play something like a nit is EV and part of the reason is table image. I will make loose plays with iffy cards if I see a potential profit angle against a particular player once my table image is established. Also, I think it's very important to start off nitty until I understand something about the other players at the table, so I know whether that capped pot is just a bunch of people saying "gambool!" or whether I just stepped into a bear trap with a bunch of tight players who simply all drew high pocket pairs or AK on the same hand.

LawDude

03-18-2009, 10:00 PM

#28 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

OK, I'm part of the way through it, and I want to clarify something. I am a nit pre-flop. While I vary my play based on what is going on at the table, as a general matter you aren't going to see me playing with QTo or Kxo or J7o or any of the normal trash hands that people limp in with. In fact, you aren't going to see me limping or calling much at all pre-flop, unless I have position and a hand with real speculative value like 65s+ or 75s+, or Axs. Most poker hands are trash, and while I can think of a situation where I would raise even with 72o(!), that gets back to reads and reactions to aggressoin and all the fundamentals of my poker game. If I can't isolate, if people are flooding the pots with money, I want to be in those pots (and building them) when I have a good shot at the best hand and out of those pots when I don't.

But much of the material that you linked to concerns POST-flop play. And that's an entirely different animal. Sure I'm a nit in the sense that I don't c-bet or bluff much-- I find the c-betting threads at FTR somewhat amusing in that I would invite ANY FTR player to come down to the tables I play at, c-bet their AK on a blank flop, and see what happens. It won't be pretty in most instances.

But I am quite aggressive in situations where I can drive people out of the pot. I use flop aggression to buy free turn cards, to set up turn bets to induce folding, and to build the pot. I check-raise when I think I can induce action. And quite importantly, I build the pot relentlessly when I have the best hand and can get people to call, and also if I have the right odds to get paid off on my draws.

In other words, when these guys talk about ram-and-jam, that's something I am quite familiar with. What I reject is overbetting trash hands pre-flop in multi-way pots where nobody's folding. Being the tightest player at a loose table is EV+ over the long run.

Fnord

03-18-2009, 10:04 PM

#29 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

You don't understand limit poker. Every time you pass an edge you win-rate suffers. Win-rate drives the % chance you will have an $X downswing.

Poker isn't about having the best hand, it's about equity and hand reading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-18-2009, 10:23 PM

#30 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

It is indeed. But "no fold 'em hold 'em" IS (partly) about having the best hand, because there is so little fold equity. So, essentially, you have to get your chips in when you are ahead and get out when you are behind and don't have the drawing odds to continue. (Reading, interestingly, is just as important as it is in tighter games.)

And I think you are ignoring the point I am making about the second best hand. Let's say we take your advice and come in with QTo in one of those raised / capped pots. What have we got? I'd bet that a lot of the time, we have the second best hand. Why?

Well, first of all, someone may have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT obviously. This is quite bad.

Second of all, someone may have a hand that dominates QTo, e.g., AQ, KQ, AT, KT. If this is the case, we are in real trouble as well.

Third of all, someone may have AK or AJ.

Now, I know, a lot of these people are playing with trash. But how many times do you see a capped pot where EVERYONE is playing with trash, instead of at least one pre-flop raiser playing a good hand?

And if we are up against ANY of those hands, we actually have very little chance at winning the pot unless it folds.

This is why you have to nit up more than you would want to. I have no problem with a player in a tight game who abuses someone heads up or in a three way pot with QTo. But saying, generically, that some of the value contributed by the fish is transferred to the second best hand is missing the point that the second best hand doesn't win a multiway pot as often as you seem to think. If you have QTo, to win that multiway pot, you need to catch the card or cards necessary to get you ahead of those players with better hands while also not seeing a board that rewards one of the players playing a speculative hand with two pair, a set, a straight, or a flush. Good luck! Whereas if you are in with KK, you just have to stay ahead of everyone and you can usually tell when you aren't. And if you are in with 8h7h, you can see the flop, ram and jam if you hit or get a good draw, and get the heck out if you don't.

You want to be in these pots with the sorts of hands that are likely to either crush the range of your opponents or improve on the flop. I can demonstrate the math behind this if you would like, but simply saying "some of the value is transferred over to the second best hand" misses the reality of the situation.

KoRnholio

03-18-2009, 10:28 PM

#31 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,166

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Poker isn't about having the best hand, it's about equity and hand reading.

Very good point. It took me a while to overcome my nittiness preflop in LHE. Especially around other nits you can really stick it to them with marginal hands preflop if they play tight preflop and/or weak-tight postflop.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

LawDude

03-18-2009, 10:40 PM

#32 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

And having read Izmet Fekali's argument about having the second best hand, let me elaborate. He makes a crucial math mistake. He says to come in with his jacks even if he knows a player has aces because the capped pot gives him better odds than the 20 percent equity he needs to beat the aces.

The problem with that argument, though, is he isn't heads up against the aces. He is in a 5 way pot with 3 other hands. And those 3 other hands probably have some speculative potential (indeed, that's why they are being played); they may even have great speculative potential. He has to not only hit his set, but also avoid someone's suited connectors or Ax or Kx suited making a flush or a straight or a boat.

Now if you knew that in fact there is a great likelihood that these three are true fish who would get into a capped pot with hands that didn't even have speculative potential like 92o or something, that's a different issue. And that gets back to reads-- and I never underestimate the importance of reads.

And bear in mind, that's with a pocket pair, which is actually one of the BEST case scenarios for a call. QTo is not pocket jacks. It is likely to overlap the range of the other players, which will give it very few good outs.

The one thing I will agree with Izmet on is suited connectors, especially high ones like T9s. That's a great hand to have in one of these pots. But that's because you actually have a decent chance of hitting a good hand AND a decent chance that if you hit the flop, the cards won't help another player hit it better.

LawDude

03-18-2009, 11:34 PM

#33 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

And now one more criticism of Izmet's methods regarding loose range.

To raise, e.g., A4s into a multiway pot, you'd want to be able to extract pretty good information about whether the hand is still good post-flop, given that some of the hand's equity is against missed draws and the like. This is a problem with a lot of mathematically-based pre-flop tables.

If your reads aren't perfect-- if they are far from perfect, you will be sitting there post-flop a good number of times wondering whether you just got bet into by a draw that you are ahead of or whether someone hit the flop, and if so, with what? And under what circumstances are you going to c-bet?

One of the advantages of tight pre-flop play that isn't always remarked upon is that playing tight pre-flop makes post-flop play easier. A player who raises K6s pre-flop and gets an K93 rainbow flop has to spend the rest of the hand trying to figure out if he is ahead. A player who raises AA and sees the same flop sits in much better stead.

The point is, Izmet is running his mathematical simulation and concluding that lots of hands that I would consider trash are in fact ahead and should be raised, but he isn't taking into account that the reason why we don't play trash hands is not simply that they are mathematically less likely to win but also because they are more difficult to play post-flop.

I say this a lot, but a player with great reads and a good understanding of actions and possible reactions can get away with playing a great many hands in poker, because that player will be able to make up for being theoretically behind on the math with great post-flop play.

But the flip side of us is that most of us would benefit from NOT playing many hands that are theoretically EV+, because we won't have perfect information post-flop and many hands are so much more difficult to play when we don't.

Fnord

03-19-2009, 12:14 AM

#34 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

QTs is an easy raise after multiple limpers. QTo isn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-19-2009, 12:39 AM

#35 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

QTs is an easy raise after multiple limpers. QTo isn't.

Well, as I said above, QTs is a suited connector (actually suited one-gapper). If you want to raise with this, go ahead.

(There is, actually, a reason NOT to raise but to call with it, which is a raise cuts your implied odds. But on average, suited connectors are still EV+ on 2 bets as well as one, as long as there are 5 people in the pot. I did a post on this a month ago in the Beginners Circle which worked out the math.)

Fnord

03-19-2009, 05:25 AM

#36 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

QTs has an equity edge mutli-way!!! You really don't understand how really loose games work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-19-2009, 07:08 AM

#37 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

No, fnord, izmet screwed up his math. QT overlaps the likely range of other callers in a multiway pot. So you are likely to have 2nd best hands when you make your pair. And it's hard to figure out if you are ahead if you do make it. Even though in a vacuum, QTs may be in the top 20 percent of starting hands, your effective equity is thus much less than it might appear because of the likely range of other callers. Another way of putting this is that in a typical multiway pot, it won€ actually be the 'second best' hand in terms of your actual chances of taking down the pot and thus can't actually capture even a portion of the dead money put in the pot by the fish. Therefore, you need good implied odds to play it.

Fnord

03-19-2009, 05:26 PM

#38 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

The math and players who crush those sorts of games disagree.

You're passing on too many edges and probably folding too much to crush really loose limit games.

When there are like 1,000,000 bets in the pot having the best hand is pretty lol. Get better at pushing edges, cleaning up outs and sucking out with odds.

That said, your thought process is considerably better for games that go 2-4 players to a flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-19-2009, 09:14 PM

#39 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I'm right on the math. But in terms of why the players you reference are crushing this game, I have a suspicion that what is really going on is they are tremendous post-flop players. Once the pot is huge, everyone is calling with their draws. If you can figure out where you stand accurately, you have a tremendous advantage over the calling stations. And that makes QTs much more playable. Indeed, it makes tons of hands playable and raisable.

Bear in mind that I make a tidy profit in live games up to 9/18 and a profit at 20/40 too. And this is over a pretty long period of playing several hours a week. So it isn't as if I am not beating loose limit games. Maybe I could crush the games if I just learned to play hands that overlap with other players' likely ranges, but it's not as if what I am doing doesn't work.

LawDude

03-20-2009, 08:31 PM

#40 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Here's a nice illustration of my point, from a 4 way pot on High Stakes Poker. I'll list the hands and their equity in the pot:

AsKh 28%
Ah9h 16%
Ad7d 18%
JsTs 36%

In other words, a pair of suited connectors is often going to be the "second best" (or even best) hand in this situation, because people play their broadway cards in these pots and they overlap. Notice that the WORST of the 4 is the nominal "second best" hand, A9s.

So while a player may think he is capturing some of the equity with the second best hand, the player may actually be pouring money into the pot that he is not likely to win.

So I am fine with playing suited connectors in these pots (and even raising them, as long as you realize you are cutting your implied odds a bit). But high cards which are somewhat likely to be dominated are pretty bad to play in these pots.

Fnord

03-20-2009, 08:36 PM

#41 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

You forget that you're going to see weak offsuit aces, suited jacks and suited 1 and 2 gappers in the hands of limpers in a loose limit game. Those are MONSTERS compared to the trash people need to play to get lots of 6+ handed pots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-20-2009, 09:19 PM

#42 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

You'll see SOME weak offsuit aces, and certainly suited 1 and 2 gappers (by the way, suited 1 gappers have almost as much equity as suited connectors; suited 2 gappers is where the fall-off occurs).

But I think you are missing something about these types of pots. Even with loose players, they rarely happen on every pot. Rather, they usually happen when 1 or, more likely, TWO players have good hands. That's what starts the raising festival. When the second player re-raises, someone's going to shout out "cappuccino" and it's everybody into the pool.

But as a result of this, the number of these hands where something like QTs is ACTUALLY the second best hand, even before you get to my point about blockers and overlaps, is not as many as you think. Yes the fish are calling with 85s or K3o, but without 2 good hands, most of these pots would be simply called around on the first raise (or even folded around on the first raise).

I was in three yesterday.

1. I had AQs and was the original raiser, another player had AA, and a third player had QQ. (As you might imagine, I didn't win this pot.

). There were two stations who didn't show but who I assume had some sort of trash.

2. I had KK and was the original raiser, another player had AJo, and a third player had A2s. (This one hurt-- the king of spades on the river completed the A2 guy's flush.) There were 3 stations who didn't show on that one.

3. I had AA and was the re-raiser, another player had KQs and raised and capped, and 4 others called all the way down and mucked. (I won that one-- the KQ guy hit his king.)

Note in all three of them, you wouldn't have had the second best hand with the types of hands we've been discussing.

Fnord

03-21-2009, 12:05 AM

#43 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

When everyone limps to your button, you can discount the odds of running into a hand that crushes QTs, JTs, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LawDude

03-21-2009, 01:23 AM

#44 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

When everyone limps to your button, you can discount the odds of running into a hand that crushes QTs, JTs, etc.

Well, maybe, maybe not. You'll see a fair amount of limping with KT, KQ, KJ. Sometimes AT, AJ as well. We also have some idiots who don't even raise their high pocket pairs.

But I am not going to discount your point that QTs or JTs can be raised in that situation. It's not something I do generally, because I don't consider QTs a valuable enough hand unless it has folded to me and I figure to be above 1 or 2 opponents' ranges and with position. But if you want to do it because you figure you are ahead in that situation, go ahead.

What I do claim is that QTs is not often going to qualify as a "second best hand" in a capped pot. At least not unless you just have a couple of total maniacs capping everything.

Latest Poker News
Bbickes	06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
In an effort to perhaps keep players from moving to the new Revolution Network setup by the former Lock Poker, Merge Network has taken drastic steps to respond to their player base's requests to impro ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:20 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,247,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Live Poker

what a difference a cardroom makes

Play for FREE and practice your game at...