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Fnord
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01-28-2005, 10:21 AM
Post subject: Thoughts on table image and being tight
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I play tight. At most limt tables I play at I'm the tightest player at the table. It it's close, the other guy is probably horrible enough in other ways, but anyway....
I catch all kinds of comments. "You play too tight man", "Ace King no good", "You read the right book", etc. I also get check/raised A LOT (something I'm comming to grips with.) So it got me thinking, should I play out some more marginal stuff to try to hide my table image? Bottom line is I don't think it's worth it.
Lets say I raise UTG with QQ. I suspect I get a couple extra folds a typical player doesn't as the semi-aware players can put put enough together to not cold call J9s. The gamblers will play anyway. They certainly won't let a dorky looking kid who's folded every hand the last couple orbits stop them from playing their suited garbage. Besides I build big pots and big pots are fun... The semi-awares still will cold call with KQ/AJ, etc because they don't know any better. However, the extra couple folds might be making me money. Consider that if I'm in a 4 way pot instead of 6 way their loose calls against my likely big pair go from pretty bad to horrible.
Also, if I get a chance I'll befriend the person to my left and drop a couple hints (when no one else is really listening) "I'm a tight player, you really should fold when I raise pre-flop." Overall, I think I'd rather have position than yet another horrible hand in the pot. Usually, I manage to get a seat with an already somewhat aware player to my left, so it's just a matter of reminding him what he already knows.
One other thing worth mentioning. I see quite a few players sit down and play pretty good pre-flop poker for like an hour or two, then after getting a couple big hands busted... "I can't win with my big hands, so I'll play crap hands because they're winning." Ignoring the cost of entering all those pots and folding the flop or turn. Crushing a loose offline hold'em game is kinda boring and often fustrating. Particularly if you're focused on playing hands more than watching people. I think that's why so few people are able to do it well.
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stevedonel
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01-28-2005, 06:28 PM
Post subject: Re: Thoughts on table image and being tight
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#2 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Vegas
Posts: 617
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
...... dorky looking kid......
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So how old are you anyway? For some reason, I've always thought you were in your 30s. Go figure
Anyway, I dont care what image I have at a live game. I'm favored, and they're throwing money into the pot I'm likely to win. In live play, I'm much better at reading and letting go of my hand, when beat. In live games, I prefer for them to forget that I'm even there.
Online, I chat alot and let the nimrods know that I'm tight. They'll tighten up a bit, but not much. If they play bottom pair and hit their trashy kicker on the river, I have no way of reading it, until they check-raise me.
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Is that guy still part of the forum??
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Radashack
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 522
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As with anything, my vote goes to it depends... I believe there is definetly a time to project a loose table image, and definetly a time where its not worth the extra effort. If you are at a table where the action is extremly light, its time to take a new role, however if you have people calling you just to gamble against the rock and openly talking about your play style, just camp it and crush them, you know you're the favored hand most of the time going in. I also think throwing a wrench to people is a nice touch to... take down a hand with some bad cards, show them off and make a comment about how tight you are. Start making people second guess themselves and become more apt to make mistakes.
The psychological aspect of live play can make a huge impact on profits. I remember I had the table saying "ohh the kid raises again, suprise suprise" 5/5 limit (CO max bet). Because after I got a bit of a stack winning good hands I went and started playing a limp and post flop game making me look like a loose fish. Man people paid me off over and over. Throw in a little acting of being amazed and super happy. It was a nice 700$ profit playing 5/5 limit. for a few hours.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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I was thinking about this very subject last night while I was playing at a casino. People definitely caught on that I played tight. At one point I hit trips on the flop, and everyone folded to my turn bet. Another time, I was heads up with the table maniac, caught trips on the turn, and he folded to my turn bet after checking to me.
I have to believe though that this "unimaginative" style of poker that I play is still the most profitable in a limit game, even if everyone knows how I play. Besides, players (including me) tend to get "stuck on a theory" when it comes to pegging down their opponents. Once somebody's mind is made up that you are tight, I don't think there is much you can do to change that image.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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If they've reached the point of folding any time you raise, couldn't you use that to raise with lesser hands a few times? If you get called down, they see that you had nothing (hell, even if you don't, you can always choose to show as mentioned above). When you don't get called down, you're taking profits above and beyond what was yours by the cards. Either you'll make more from them folding to your marginal hands, or you'll make more from them catching on and starting to play against your good hands (once they start playing more, you can tighten up again for a while, obviously).
No idea if any of that works, though it's what I plan to try when I make my first trip to a B&M sometime in Feb.
- Jeffrey
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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I think it actually IS worth it to get called down with some bad hands, on purpose, then be like "ah shoot, take it down". Then do it again maybe for a cheap pot... then you NAIL them hand after hand later on.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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I tend to play ultra tight, ultra aggressive.
I see maybe 20% of the flops ( which in a B&M is less than 10 hands an hour) but when I'm in, I'm jamming the pot almost regardless of the flop. If I get check raised holding AK high, I drop it and wait for the next time. But In my experience I wind up losing 4 or 5 small bets or winning 10-20 big ones. (Though if I have AA, its often the opposite) But it works out that I am getting about 5BB/hr which I am okay with.
My tendency to raise/fold a hand makes people think I am a maniac, they seem not to notice that I pretty much always start with the best hand.
No one has ever accused me of playing to tight... They see me as the action guy.
Every so often I'll run into a hand like recently where I laid down 2 red aces to the post flop action on a board of 789 of clubs, then saw the winner show down A8 offsuit vs 66, but hey, that's poker.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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You forgot a quote I hear a lot- "You can't win if you don't play."
It's one of my favorites. 
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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fnord, you should read some of mike caro's stuff about building a "wild" table image while continuing to play tight. it's been very effective for me at casinos. e.g., i wear loud clothes and sit between the drunk maniacs who raise their hands blind, high-fiving them when they win and acting like their best buddy. then when i raise and ram, everyone assumes i'm full of crap and calls down my nut hand. or if they hesitate, i drop mike caro's line, "i might not be bluffing this time." it's pure gold! after showdown, i downplay my play and tell everyone how "lucky" i've been that day, or how it makes up for my bad luck earlier in the day. i "sympathize" with losers who constantly complain about getting repeatedly outkicked whenever they play A2o, A3o, and A4o. or who bitch and moan about folding 84 which would have flopped trips. i tell them it's all a luck game and encourage them to play more hands. then when they catch some lame 2pr, i congratulate them and encourage them even more! of course, this is all at the $2/$4 and $3/$6 games where the guppies swim. maybe it's a little too obvious at the higher limits where you play.
ChezJ
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Brodie
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 95
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I'm having a bit of a hard time with this right now, too. I'm at the point in my play that I can do somewhat well at B&M 2/4 games (SSH was a big help), but I'm not crushing them. I certainly have a few leaks, but I'm starting to wonder if I should be manipulating my table image to my advantage. The problem is that I'm not sure how I should be manipulating it, so I might be playing with fire. 
I'm a tight player (obviously, I'm a fan of this site!), and I think the people at the casino I play at most often are aware of that. They are a mixture of maybe 80% retirees and 20% younger alert players, similar to me but much looser. I had been trying to seem not tight even though I am, but Fnord's idea of letting everone know he is tight has me intrigued. Should I give up on trying to look not tight and just go with it?
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Brodie
"The present success is the hundred failures of the past."
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stanky
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 8
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If your a tight player pick your spots and bluff garbage hands when your pretty sure you won't get called, and if ya do you will just confuse them as to what kinda style you play. i like to confuse the opsition as much as i can when i play, i throw my tells around when i have good hands and bad hands, then when they try to use them to there advantage it can really mess them up.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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if you have problems getting action at a 2/4 B&M game then you must be doing something horribly wrong. are you just sitting there folding in silence until you get a premium hand? try chatting up the players around you and telling some jokes. raise with 72o and show it down for laughs. you have to make it look like you are there to have fun, not murder them.
ChezJ
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
raise with 72o and show it down for laughs.
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I was with you up until then.
I make enough plays the fish don't understand that work well enough in their minds anyway.
Anyway, I considered the Mike Caro approach and it just isn't in my personality to pull it off. What I have been doing is chatting it up a bit more and bully the semi-aware players (with position on me) out of pots. I get action from the fish anyway and they can't school me as well without the other guys in the hand.
Meh, I'm 10x the player online than I am offline anyway...
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