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Thinking someone is cheating in my home game

  
 
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sl0wfaller
Old 08-26-2004, 09:03 PM     Post subject: Thinking someone is cheating in my home game #1 (permalink)  
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Has anyone else ever thought that a trusted friend might be cheating?

We play usually 2 games a week, NLH w/ a $10 buy in and .25/.50 blinds and this guy is taking down way too many pots. Both another guy in the game and I came to the conclusion seperatly that he is stacking the deck somehow. When he deals he shuffles a bridge a couple of times and then he cuts the deck(or stacks the deck) several times to himself before he passes back for the cut.

Would stacking the deck like that provide any evidence that he is cheating? He gets so many trips its crazy and I've noticed when he isn't dealing he'll fold post flop to any bet. Another thing is a month ago he wasn't winning at all and now he's taking everyones $$.

Thoughts?

thanks,
Chris
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Fnord
Old 08-26-2004, 09:08 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Politely ask that he offer a card cut when dealing. Hold him to it and be willing to call a misdeal (before you look at your cards.)
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sl0wfaller
Old 08-26-2004, 09:18 PM #3 (permalink)  
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He always pass the deck back for a card cut. I just don't like what he's doing before he offers the cut, i.e cutting the deck himself several times. Maybe I'm just paranoid but I don't understand card stacking.

thanks for the reply Fnord

Chris
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Humphrind
Old 08-26-2004, 09:21 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sl0wfaller
Maybe I'm just paranoid but I don't understand card stacking.
I don't understand card stacking either. I'm interested in learning, just to know more about poker, but I'd hate for any of my friends to fnd out that I can cheat.

In some of my home games we let someone else shuffle, then the dealer cuts the deck one time and deals. This might be a rule you can add. We never even had to think about cheating, but this may cut down on chances to suspect.
I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
 
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ttanaka
Old 08-26-2004, 09:29 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 If he's passing the deck back to get cut, then he can really only be cheating if the guy cutting the deck is also in on it.

It's pretty simple to shuffle the cards, position an ace or whatever in the deck, mark the bottom (crimp or fold the edge) of another card (Ace or whatever), place the marked card over the ace, and then pass the deck.

The guy cutting the deck would have to cut at the marked card, which would put the Ace at the top of the deck, ready to be dealt, and the marked card at the bottom, ready to be base dealt.

Now if you think he has the skills to do this, and has a partner in crime, then obviously you don't want to be playing with them. But at those kinds of stakes, it's hard for me to believe that all of the above is actually occurring while also risking your friendship.

Anyone can get lucky at poker. Even for extended periods of time. Maybe the better position to take is to congratulate him on his lucky cards and let him know they won't last...
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Xianti
Old 08-26-2004, 09:31 PM #6 (permalink)  
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pokerfanatic
Old 08-26-2004, 09:38 PM #7 (permalink)  
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If you think he is cheating get just to the right of him and make you the one to cut the cards, most the time people wont stack for a no cut, so it could work to your advantage if you do it that route, I’m not saying I cheat but if I can locate two aces in the deck i can make sure they end up in whoever’s hand I fell like them landing in, that isn't hard if you know how to chop and make it look like you're doing a dealers box (where you strip the cards in sections), this is how I do my 4 ace trick, then I shuffle once one card to one card at the top (if it's heads up (only works with people that never cut)), and I’ll get four aces on the flop, something to think about, I don't use this crap because I can win straight up, but people still do it, watch for hand position when he deals if he has the mechanics grip then yes he's probably base dealing. Good luck and watch what he does in the deal like a hawk!

p.s. I can make a short video I can e-mail you if you really want, just as an example.
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lonnie
Old 08-26-2004, 09:41 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
The guy cutting the deck would have to cut at the marked card, which would put the Ace at the top of the deck, ready to be dealt, and the marked card at the bottom, ready to be base dealt.
Just a small note - I recommend burning a card before dealing the first card.

Also, when your friend shuffles can you tell if he is doing anything funny at that point? Is he dealing off the bottom? Is he not shuffling? Does he seem to try to keep a certain card or cards in a particular location?

Unless your buddy has really practiced this alot, I would chalk it up to paranoia. I would definitely make sure the cards are cut though.

Another way to tell, use the line from Maverick "I would like my next card off the top of the deck please." then watch his face. If you see some sign of panic which he quickly tries to cover up, then you've got him. If not, then laugh it off as a funny movie quote and muck your hand.

Just an idea.
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SteveO
Old 08-27-2004, 01:28 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Sounds like he's just running hot. It is very hard to stack the deck and play card mechanic in front of everyone. If he had that kind of talent it would be more profitable for him to try that elsewhere.

Invest in one of those automatic shuffling machines... there like 20 bucks. I was thinking of getting one just to speed up the game.
Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
 
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Aceofone
Old 08-30-2004, 06:58 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Another point to note is that the dealer should ONLY be shuffling the cards, he should not cut the deck.

We play that the dealer shuffles several times, then holds the deck to the person on the right who can tap it, or cut it himself.
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DavSimon
Old 08-30-2004, 09:18 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 I purchased a very nice card shuffling machine from Target online for $30. Gives a good random shuffle and will eliminate all suspicion and doubt.

Edit:
I have not gotten one...seems like a waste for my small games, but you could also get a dealer's shoe for very cheap ($5-$20) - no dealin' off the bottom...plus you usually get a couple nice cut cards thrown in.
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mike4066
Old 08-30-2004, 09:54 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I think a cutcard would be the answer. A cut card can simply be the joker from the deck. It doesn't have to be a special plastic card.


Few things to look for in trying to catch an amature mechanic.

Watch for a mechanic's grip. The grip can help you tell if he's possibly bottom dealing.

"A Mechanic's Grip"
Thumb across the top and all 4 fingers on the opposite long side.
Dealer then "pulls" cards out from the front short edge of the deck.

Another variation would have his
Thumb on top, first finger at the top, little finger on the bottom, and middle + ring under the deck/out of the way and pulling cards from the long side. This looks awkward and feels the same way.

"Thumb not moving?"
Also if you see him dealing out cards and his top thumb doesn't move, look closer he might be bottom dealing. If your not sure what to look for deal out a few cards, notice how you push out the top card with your thumb? Some people will forget move their thumb while trying to pull from the bottom.

"Catching a hanger"
As you pull the bottom card from the deck the friction between the second to last card can cause it to slide out a few milimeters. If you EVER notice the bottom card even slightly pulled forward stop the deal and check. A legit deal would never have a reason for the bottom card to pull out at all.

Also consider that the person winning might have a partner handing him the cards. Just a consideration.

I'd like to think that if its a friend of yours, he's having a lucky run at the tables.
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FyrFytr998
Old 08-30-2004, 10:15 PM #13 (permalink)  
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He just might be hot like they said. I played a home game the other night. And seeing as I'm the only person who can shuffle the cards rather quickly. I was the dealer the whole night.

I would say that 70% of the folps I dealt had boarded pairs. It was unbelievable. The guys were ribbing me about stacking the deck, but they know how much I detest cheating and people who cheat. So it was all in good fun. Plus alot of the flops didn't help me in the least.

If you consider that person a trusted friend. Then you should be able to talk to them about their methods of dealing. One of my buddies got frustrated and I let him shuffle the cards for a couple hands. And the cards still were coming out weird. So he gave the duties back over to me. I also make sure whoever had the button was the person to cut the deck.

Big Lick
 
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Humphrind
Old 08-30-2004, 10:38 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
If you consider that person a trusted friend. Then you should be able to talk to them about their methods of dealing.
I got to do that a couple of weeks ago. My friend is not good at shuffling or dealing. We use a cut card and he has a habit of putting that on the side. He holds the cards very clumsily and shuffles very clumsily. If you ask me, it looks suspicious. But he would never cheat, I know him too well. Also, he doesn't win enough to cheat. If he were cheating, I'd expect him to give himself soething better than a 63o.
I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
 
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FyrFytr998
Old 08-31-2004, 06:15 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrind
Quote:
Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
If you consider that person a trusted friend. Then you should be able to talk to them about their methods of dealing.
I got to do that a couple of weeks ago. My friend is not good at shuffling or dealing. We use a cut card and he has a habit of putting that on the side. He holds the cards very clumsily and shuffles very clumsily. If you ask me, it looks suspicious. But he would never cheat, I know him too well. Also, he doesn't win enough to cheat. If he were cheating, I'd expect him to give himself soething better than a 63o.
Haha. I would hope so. I guess it didn't look good that I won the tourney then did it? I mean come on though. There were only 5 of us, and 2 of the guys were beginners. So it was inevitable that I or my buddy would win. What's even funnier is the guy who busted out early and rebought wound up in second.

Big Lick
 
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knightwalker
Old 09-27-2004, 03:55 AM #16 (permalink)  
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I doubt your friend is cheating. There are several methods of shuffling. The Bridge is by far the most common and in my oppinion the most efficient, But is does have one downfall. When you are shuffliing, you have to flash tow cards to the tabl. The bottom cards of both piles you are merging. The "folding" of the deck into itself is one way to prevent people form watching the bottom cars and knowing that they will not be comming. Even when the cards are cut, an observant person can see if those two cards make it to the top of bottom half of the deck. For this Reason, when I deal, I shuffle in the same manner that your friend is doing. If he didn't pass off for a cut, that would be a different story.
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thepokerdude
Old 10-02-2004, 09:30 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I have to agree that a cut card might be your best bet. When I play in my home games, i use a cut card that i ordered the last time I got a deck of Kems. They run about .19 cents apiece. Let the dealer shuffle, and then pass it back to the player behind for the cut. Then leave the cut card on the bottom of the deck for the entire hand. This not only prevents players seeing the bottom card, but also dealing from the bottom. Although, could be the guy is on a roll, it does happen. Good luck.
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Ragingg
Old 10-11-2004, 02:22 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Do you think he could be pulling a nice pass to uncut the cut cards?
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knightwalker
Old 10-11-2004, 03:35 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Only if he is cutting them more than once. A simple single cut is really hard to fake.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 10-11-2004, 05:24 PM #20 (permalink)  
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I think your best idea would be to ask him. If hes a friend, he'll be honest and even if he lies, he'll be aware of the fact that you're watching him.

I'd chalk it up to luck, myself.

-'rilla

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mikenearmilwaukee
Old 11-07-2004, 04:38 PM #21 (permalink)  

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CHANGE YOUR CARDS! AND COUNT THEM OFTEN BY THEMSELVES 4-aces 4-ducks 4-threes and so on. I didn't think I would find cheaters either but I found 2 eights on my floor after a night. What can you do then. My advice is don't meet too many people on pokermeetup.com ... and DO NOT use bicycle cards. I don't understand why you all are focusing on the shuffle. If the cheat is occuring its during the deal. Good luck man, and get that piece of crap outta your house.
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Old 11-07-2004, 04:56 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by mikenearmilwaukee
CHANGE YOUR CARDS! AND COUNT THEM OFTEN BY THEMSELVES 4-aces 4-ducks 4-threes and so on. I didn't think I would find cheaters either but I found 2 eights on my floor after a night. What can you do then. My advice is don't meet too many people on pokermeetup.com ... and DO NOT use bicycle cards. I don't understand why you all are focusing on the shuffle. If the cheat is occuring its during the deal. Good luck man, and get that piece of crap outta your house.
Calm down man, he probably isn't even cheating anyway.

If it is a friend, then he is most porbably just getting lucky, who would go slow low as to cheat a friend out of his money like that?
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elanto
Old 11-07-2004, 09:02 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwarfman1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikenearmilwaukee
CHANGE YOUR CARDS! AND COUNT THEM OFTEN BY THEMSELVES 4-aces 4-ducks 4-threes and so on. I didn't think I would find cheaters either but I found 2 eights on my floor after a night. What can you do then. My advice is don't meet too many people on pokermeetup.com ... and DO NOT use bicycle cards. I don't understand why you all are focusing on the shuffle. If the cheat is occuring its during the deal. Good luck man, and get that piece of crap outta your house.
Calm down man, he probably isn't even cheating anyway.

If it is a friend, then he is most porbably just getting lucky, who would go slow low as to cheat a friend out of his money like that?
i agree remember that hes playing with his friends, i am positive this guy isnt cheating and if he is you shouldn't be his friend, i suggest to make two people cut the deck, then you would be totally sure their not cheting unless they are all in in it.


-anto
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Miggo
Old 11-23-2004, 07:58 PM #24 (permalink)  
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How does that go? "If you can't tell the sucker after 20 minutes at the table ..." Well it sounds as if it's been a couple weeks now and you're not sure ...

Just kidding man. I have to agree with most everyone else who are saying that I don't think a friendship is worth screwing up for the amount of the stakes. I'm slowly beginning to understand that making money is fun, but I think that's crossing the line. And don't let being paranoid about it change the way you play.
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