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naturalassassin
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02-16-2009, 12:14 AM
Post subject: Tells: pursing of the lips
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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Can you put a player on a Q high and worse preflop based on tells?
I've noticed some players purse their lips puff the chest and cheeks when weak. Rare do I see people who fake this. I read really weak and when I raise they often fold their hand when I make a move so I don't get much information.
Recently, I made an observation 3 handed of a 9 person live sit & go when a loose aggressive player who caught lots of good hands had raised my SB. I looked down at K4 and noticed my opponents posture similar to that of before when he showed a bluff. I then saw him purse his lips and decided my K4 was better than his hand and moved in. He showed Q 10s and my hand held up.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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I can never get any reads, I have the avatars turned off.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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{from BC}
Perhaps Fnord or the other guys who play a lot of live poker could give some insight.
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naturalassassin
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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Thanks I'll check that forum out too!
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Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.
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w272727
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19
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pursing of the lips means they are thinking about what they should do, generally yes they will have weaker hands, as with better hands AK for example they will already know what to do.. i recommend you read helmuths read em and reap book on tells with an fbi agent...good book on all live tells.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Physical tells are somewhat overrated, in that most of the time, a player's betting and previous betting habits tell you more about his or her hand than any physical tell.
That said, you can't generalize about something like pursing of the lips. Pursing of the lips is clearly SOME sort of tell, but for different players, it may mean different things. I was sitting next to a guy the other night who shook noticeably when he put his chips in when he had a good hand. (When he flopped a flush, I could tell immediately.) But I have seen other players who are calm and cool when they have a big hand and shake when they are playing a mediocre one.
So I would just continue observing players if I were you, and try and figure out what the physical tells mean in each particular player. And don't go overboard on this stuff-- as I said, most of the time the real tells are in the betting.
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naturalassassin
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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Thanks Lawdude.
I don't think they are overrated. I take them for what they are information and not hard and fast science. I knew my opponents hand range was very wide and that his body language suggested to me he was stealing like I'd seen him do many times before. He also had a lot of showdowns which is why the fish has the bigstack. Anyways I'm really confident he's not holding a good hand like AK, because he went to showdown twice and I recorded lots of physical mannerisms. I thought about this and then I saw him start to purse his lips as I contemplated raising. and I thought he would only do that if he had been worrying about the strength of his hand, (or as described in Read'Em and reap. Uncertainty) So now what does he think I have. He must be thinking I'm ready to move with a hand like KT, AT or something else that has him dominated. I did not expect a call unless he had a weak Ace. I wasn't surprised with the Q10.
It's not an exact Science but I don't have to make these kind of decisions very often and was hoping for some questions or analysis or past experience from other players.
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Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by naturalassassin
Thanks Lawdude.
I don't think they are overrated. I take them for what they are information and not hard and fast science. I knew my opponents hand range was very wide and that his body language suggested to me he was stealing like I'd seen him do many times before. He also had a lot of showdowns which is why the fish has the bigstack. Anyways I'm really confident he's not holding a good hand like AK, because he went to showdown twice and I recorded lots of physical mannerisms. I thought about this and then I saw him start to purse his lips as I contemplated raising. and I thought he would only do that if he had been worrying about the strength of his hand, (or as described in Read'Em and reap. Uncertainty) So now what does he think I have. He must be thinking I'm ready to move with a hand like KT, AT or something else that has him dominated. I did not expect a call unless he had a weak Ace. I wasn't surprised with the Q10.
It's not an exact Science but I don't have to make these kind of decisions very often and was hoping for some questions or analysis or past experience from other players.
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When I say that they are overrated, I don't mean they aren't useful. I mean that if you watch how poker is portrayed in the media, it is as if physical tells are the big determining factor that makes some live players into winning poker players and others into losers.
And in fact, in response to that, poker players sometimes adopt elaborate defenses against physical tells. Sunglasses, hats, ipods, hoods, loose clothes, etc.
I would estimate that in fact, I use physical tells to make a decision I otherwise wouldn't have made once every couple of hours or so during a poker game. In contrast, I use betting patterns to help make decisions in just about every hand I decide to play.
I could be a good poker player even if I never paid attention to physical tells at all. I couldn't be a good poker player if I didn't know how to do reads based on how people bet their hands and how they respond to aggression or passivity.
Having said all that, I think you did exactly what I said-- you related the physical tell to this particular player rather than assuming that pursed lips "always" meant something. That's how you play physical tells.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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I saw a guy doing this tonight and he ended up having a weak ace that he called to the river. He nearly sucked his whole face in it was weird!
Sometimes poker tells are different for every player too. I would be careful when analysing tells and make sure you aren't basing a decision for alot of chips just because of a mediocre tell.
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naturalassassin
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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I make steals all the time based on tells and opponents mind state. Betting tendencies are more important... but what's he raising with? Wide range right... It's poker and there is lots of information out there.
I think everyone here knows that tells are useful and I wanted to start a thread about analyzing this specific tell rather than people saying tells or overrated or don't put all your money based on tells. That's not helpful feedback when you have only 10bb-15bb and are looking to double up through a bigstack late in a tournament. 9 handed game I would have waited for a good hand of course. But even still someone wakes up with a big hand and I go broke because his range included suited connectors. A tell may lead me to believe I have the best or worst hand. I don't want to be dominated of course... but more importantly I don't want to be throwing away the best hand or calling with the worst.
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Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by naturalassassin
I make steals all the time based on tells and opponents mind state.
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Mind state, tendentices and approach to the game > tells
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naturalassassin
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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thanks fnord that's what I'm saying. there's lots of information on all these so if someone wants to talk about tells I'm game!
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Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Body movements can be random or inconsistant.
Most people are pretty transparent about how they feel, what gear they're in and have a certain view of how the game "should" be played. I think it's MORE important to abandon your biases and don't dismiss people as donks and rather get into their head.
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w272727
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 19
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be pretty careful in making plays based on tells aswell...i wouldnt do it too often, sometimes people throw off fake tells (i know i do)...and i think alot of younger players know a thing or two about it aswell and do it too.
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2ndline.4thstreet
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 120
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I'm an instinctual live player. I can't always say exactly what caused me to decided if someone was weak, but I pay a lot of attention to the other players' physical movements etc. If I relied solely on tells I wouldn't be winning, but I think they do help me with some difficult decisions sometimes.
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naturalassassin
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by w272727
be pretty careful in making plays based on tells aswell...i wouldnt do it too often, sometimes people throw off fake tells (i know i do)...and i think alot of younger players know a thing or two about it aswell and do it too.
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I look for fakers too but you're right about being careful. Tells are just for information. Though if someone's "tells" is telling me he's rushing and frustrated and tired... I'm expecting to see him make a mistake. I already have an idea of my opponents betting tendency and playing style and hopefully range before I get involved. I expect that to guide me into his likely mistakes and devise a strategy to exploit them.
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Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.
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