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Taking advantage of betting patterns, tells, and telegraphs

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NutsDeep

12-18-2009, 06:58 AM Post subject: Taking advantage of betting patterns, tells, and telegraphs

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 14

Nice forum

I'm a 1/3 NL weekend warrior who has been taking this game seriously for the past year or so and have been showing a pretty decent profit. I've been working on my fundamentals a lot, ie, position, bet sizing, equity, hand reading, etc. which has improved my game greatly. So I'm glad I found this forum and hope you guys can help me grow better and richer!

For my first post I'd like to get a discussion going on ways to expoit players tells, both physical and betting tendencies, to steer your opponent into making a big mistake and handing you big stacks of their chips.

I'll start by posting a hand history where I attempt to exploit a reliable read on a telegrapher to build a big pot in position against opponents whose ranges have been narrowed. Please comment on what you think hero should do and why. Any other comments or questions are welcome. :P

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game flow:
I've been playing pretty aggressively and slightly loose lately, the looseness is because I've noticed the villain to my left is telegraphing when he's going to raise by consistently picking up his red chips when he intends to raise after looking at his hand PF. He is in the SB now and started telegraphing his raise after the second caller. Otherwise, he normally plays pretty solid ABC poker. My read on MP1 is he is a decent thinking player who is not afraid to get his money in the pot if he thinks he has the best hand. Normally I'd raise with this hand from the button, but here I chose to let the SB raise for me.

$1/$3 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

UTG: $190
UTG+1: $400
MP1: $400
MP2:$900
MP3:$400
CO: $500
Hero (BTN):$800
SB: $300
BB: $1000

Pre Flop: ($4) Hero is Button with JJ

Fold, UTG+1 calls $3, MP1 calls $3, 2folds, CO calls $3, Hero calls $3, SB raises $17 to $20

(Pot is $33)

fold, UTG+1 calls $17, MP1 calls $17, CO calls $17, Hero raises $90 to $110

(Pot is $194)

fold, MP1 raises to $400 (all in), fold, Hero?

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Fnord

12-18-2009, 08:37 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

As played, snap fold if SB is at all tight. Otherwise the money goes in. Either way I'm not really happy about turning JJ on the button in a full ring game into a pre-flop pissing war against anyone who isn't batshit insane, defending a blind, short stacked or drunk.

Quote:

He is in the SB now and started telegraphing his raise after the second caller.

What's his range at exactly this point in the hand?

What's your ideal situation for how this hand should go down?

How would a raise to $10 on the button effect the play of this hand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

NutsDeep

12-18-2009, 02:31 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 14

Fnord, reread the HH. The SB folded. It's MP1 who's all in.

I'll go over ranges for the SB later (and what to do if he shoves), because that is important to this play, but for now I'd like to see what responses are to MP1's all in.

Fnord

12-18-2009, 05:30 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

edit: MP1's range is suspect, ship it in. Ni Han.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Keith

12-18-2009, 05:31 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,336

Quote:

Please comment on what you think hero should do and why. Any other comments or questions are welcome.

Isn't your original post rather confusing though. You say that you want to discuss exploiting the telegraphing of SB .You then criticise Fnord for answering that and questioning your play.You've given reads on people who folded but no read on the person who gives you the decision to make.You also didn't say whether you had a read on what the SB does when he'd telegraphed his raise and then someone else has raised before the action reaches him. Does he reraise,call or fold

NutsDeep

12-18-2009, 11:12 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Quote:

Please comment on what you think hero should do and why. Any other comments or questions are welcome.

Let me try to clear up the confusion a bit. I do want to discuss exploiting the telegraph of the SB, which is what we have done (only we didn't use it just against the SB, but against the whole table). We've used the SB's telegraphed raise to set up a situation where we can narrow the range of the remaining callers to hands we beat (and in many cases dominate). Thus putting us in a favorable situation when we 3bet to play a big pot in position with the best hand.

BTW, I wasn't criticising Fnord, just correcting him because he thought the SB was all in.

Now, there should be quite a few questions that come up about this play, like why did the UTG1 go all in, and what do we do if the SB raises all in. I''ll go over those and any other questions you guys have later, but I got to go to my company Xmas party now.... hohoho. (oh yeah, I'll explain why the other reads are important later too if you haven't already figured it out.)

baudib

12-18-2009, 11:52 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,233

need some reads, as a default I'd never believe someone was playing AA/KK this way. If your image is laggy then he's finally decided to take a stand with 88 or AQ, so I'd get it in.

Playing big pots at small stakes.

NutsDeep

12-20-2009, 05:04 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudib

need some reads, as a default I'd never believe someone was playing AA/KK this way. If your image is laggy then he's finally decided to take a stand with 88 or AQ, so I'd get it in.

Precisely, Baudib! Fnord asked earlier what the ideal situation for this hand was, and this it it. In about 30 times I've made this play with AA-JJ over the past ~15 months (I just play weekends), I've been shoved on by a limp/caller 3 times and they were holding AJs, 88 and TT!

In the other cases, roughly 6 times I was called by one or two limp/callers and I got to play a big pot in position with what figured to be the best hand (the second best scenario), about 6 times I was called by the OR and I still believe am ahead of his range (trickier scenario OOP, but still not horrible), 4 times I was shoved on by the OR (easy call with AA,KK, and actually not as difficult as one might think with QQ, JJ due to villian's expanded shoving range - ask me about this if you don't see why), and the rest of the time the field folded and I colleced a decent pot without a fight.

In case you're wondering, there have been times it's backfired on me, and I've gotten it in bad, and I have had the telegrapher, err... change his mind, and not raise, doh! But overall this has been one of my favorite and most lucrative plays to pull off. And it does wonders for my image

I hope everyone also understands the many other benifits of picking up a telegrapher and sitting to his right, such as being able to play speculative hands when you see he's not raising, more easily buying the button, etc. These are discussed more eloquently in poker strat books, such as "The Psychology of Poker" by Alan Schoonmaker.

Now, I'm still happy to discuss this play in more depth if anyone is interested. I'm also curious to read any other favorite plays some of you have developed which exploit tells (both physical and betting tendencies) to steer your unsuspecting villain down a path to the felt!

NutsDeep

12-20-2009, 05:48 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Quote:

Please comment on what you think hero should do and why. Any other comments or questions are welcome.

Isn't your original post rather confusing though. You say that you want to discuss exploiting the telegraphing of SB . 1) You then criticise Fnord for answering that and questioning your play. 2)You've given reads on people who folded but 3) no read on the person who gives you the decision to make. 4) You also didn't say whether you had a read on what the SB does when he'd telegraphed his raise and then someone else has raised before the action reaches him. Does he reraise,call or fold

Kieth_MM, sorry I'm just now getting to this... I've added the #'s to you're quote to help in my responses.

1) Again, I was just pointing out that he had misunderstood the HH, not criticising.

2) The read on the SB (who folded) is important because you may not want to attempt this play with QQ or JJ if he is a very passive player/ nit whose shoving range is only AA, KK. I think this is debatable, but I generally feel we would like to have around 50 %equity against the shoving range of the OR before attempting this play. Realize, though, (and this is something that took me a while to figure out) that most villains' shoving ranges have been expanded to inlude hands like AK-AJs, JJ, TT, and even worse in some cases when you add in the "tilt" factor from your "crazy steal attempt.."

3) I did give a read on the UTG+1 player who shoved - My read on UTG+1 is he is a decent thinking player who is not afraid to get his money in the pot if he thinks he has the best hand. Other reads are good, but mainly I think it's good just to be sure he's not super passive and could limp/call with QQ when you have JJ. But super passive guys like this are few and far between. Plus, he's probably not ever shoving on you anyway.

EDIT: ARGH, you're right, I miswrote my read in the original HH, sorry.

It should be describing the MP1 (I'll edit it in the OP, now. ) Good catch.

4) This wouldn't really affect this play, since you aren't rasing before him, but I think it can be a good way to get a read on his hand and narrow his range if you or someone else raises before him. For example, if you see him telegraphing a raise, then you or someone else raises before him and he decides to flat call, well perhaps you can eliminate hands he would normally 3bet with. But, if he's tricky, then perhaps not. Or if he folds, then maybe you can start to broaden his PF raising range, since he had planned to raise. But I think it would be just another tool in collecting a read on him when you chose not to make this limp/raise play.

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