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pocketfours
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04-22-2009, 03:26 PM
Post subject: Strange hand against loose whale
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#1 (permalink)
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500NL. Eff stacks 100BB. Villain is about 85/5/1.5, slightly drunk, never folds his hand to a raise pre. Likes to see flops and showdowns, has shown a few bluffs. Plays top pair aggro regardless of kicker, passive with anything less, never folds.
Villain limps UTG. I make it 30 in MP Qh6h. Folded to villain who calls.
Flop is A82rb. Villain checks, I bet 55 into 70, villain calls without thinking.
Turn is a 3, goes check-check.
River is a 7. Villain leads 100 into 180.
I'm about to muck my hand, but my intuition makes me pause. I ask him: "So, do you like your hand?". His response: "Well, if you have that ace you win", then continues after 10s pause: "I mean at least if you have a good kicker". I'm like 97% certain that he would raise top pair on the flop, regardless of kicker.
Now what? What does he have?
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
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He probably hit a 7 on the river or was calling you with 44-66...or complete air. The complete air may still have you beat however. Given that he doesn't fold I would wait to pick off his bluffs when I atleast have some shitty pair or King high.
Do you think he would fold to big raise here?
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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I like him for 87 if we have to peg him on a specific hand.
Edit: After re-reading his 2nd comment I think possibly KK-JJ. Whatever it is your description makes it seem like he is calling almost any raise at this point.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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pocketfours
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If he's doing this for value then he isn't folding. If he is bluffing then he will of course fold.
I guess he could have 77 or 87. I think he would lead turn with 33 or 23. A big pair is perhaps possible, but I didn't notice anything preflop that would indicate a monster. It was his standard limp-calling with another garbage hand routine.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
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with those reads you should explain why you're raising and why you bet the flop? making hands and showing them down seems better against mega calling stations.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
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I don't get what you're trying to do here at all. You know he has a wide range, so you choose to isolate him with an even wider range?
He likes to see showdowns, but you c-bet with air?
You know he's a station, but you're thinking about bluffing?
How about this: You iso him with a range that is AHEAD of his. You never c-bet unless you make a hand, and you value-town him with top pair / second pair.
-> profit.
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Fnord
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Why did you pick a fight with him with Q6s and a bunch of players left to act. Did you at least look to your left before putting in a raise?
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
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Get out of this hand as fast as possible and never take this line again.
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pocketfours
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
How about this: You iso him with a range that is AHEAD of his
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In my opinion I was ahead of his range. VPIP 85%, no positional awareness and never folded to a raise. I have position, preflop lead and vastly superior post flop skills.
Q6s vs 85%:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.845% 46.68% 02.17% 3299360919 153188649.50 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J2o+, T3o+, 95o+, 85o+, 74o+, 64o+, 54o }
Hand 1: 51.155% 48.99% 02.17% 3462652694 153188649.50 { Q6s }
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Why did you pick a fight with him with Q6s and a bunch of players left to act. Did you at least look to your left before putting in a raise?
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This guy was loosing his money fast. Didn't have time to wait for hands. Immediate left were bad tight regs who look their hand when it's their turn.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
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85/5/1.5 ??? Is this live or online?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
with those reads you should explain why you're raising and why you bet the flop? making hands and showing them down seems better against mega calling stations.
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I have to take a stab at some point. A cbet on an ace high flop seems like a good place for it. If for no other reason, then at least to maintain my image and to get a free river.
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pocketfours
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Get out of this hand as fast as possible and never take this line again.
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I think I played it perfectly fine until the river.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
This guy was loosing his money fast. Didn't have time to wait for hands. Immediate left were bad tight regs who look their hand when it's their turn.
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I understand this line of thinking and I don't think this hand is total spew. However, consider that if someone wakes up with a hand behind you, your pre-flop money is sunk. Also, if you try naked aggression against him, a lot of his mistakes are offsetting errors.
Can you at least read his body language or is he just spewing all over the place?
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Fnord
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04-23-2009, 06:09 AM
Post subject: Re: Strange hand against loose whale
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#15 (permalink)
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Now what? What does he have?
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What was his body language when he bet the river? How did he put his chips into the pot? Did he announce his bet or just slide them in?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Immediate left were bad tight regs who look their hand when it's their turn.
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Uhhh.... wow. Most of the weaker regs in my room signal at least some of the time.
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pocketfours
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04-23-2009, 08:27 AM
Post subject: Re: Strange hand against loose whale
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#17 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
What was his body language when he bet the river? How did he put his chips into the pot? Did he announce his bet or just slide them in?
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He was calmly turning his head back and forth and was acting like he doesn't really know or care how much he wants to bet. The he settled for a hundred, shrugged, and flicked it in (a single chip). It was like: "I guess it doesn't really matter how much I bet since I know you probably have nothing anyway". This aroused my suspicion in the first place, because if he thinks I have nothing, then he would instinctively let me bet (at least if he has a fairly weak hand that looses to an ace).
I couldn't determine whether his act was sincere. It's feasible that he has a big hand (77 or 87) and he thinks he has to bet it even though I probably have nothing.
When he was trying to tell me that he has a weak ace it was clear to me that he was lying.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
However, consider that if someone wakes up with a hand behind you, your pre-flop money is sunk.
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I didn't think that anyone behind me would want to 3bet and cut out the fish. Not much 3betting going on anyway.
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Fnord
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04-23-2009, 09:47 AM
Post subject: Re: Strange hand against loose whale
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#19 (permalink)
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
He was calmly turning his head back and forth and was acting like he doesn't really know or care how much he wants to bet. The he settled for a hundred, shrugged, and flicked it in (a single chip). It was like: "I guess it doesn't really matter how much I bet since I know you probably have nothing anyway". This aroused my suspicion in the first place, because if he thinks I have nothing, then he would instinctively let me bet (at least if he has a fairly weak hand that looses to an ace).
I couldn't determine whether his act was sincere. It's feasible that he has a big hand (77 or 87) and he thinks he has to bet it even though I probably have nothing.
When he was trying to tell me that he has a weak ace it was clear to me that he was lying.
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Yeah, mixed signals.
Doesn't sound like a weak ace to me either.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
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Quote:
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I have to take a stab at some point
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I don't get this at all, you made a marginal at best play pre flop and back it up with a hopeless one?
you should add in the chance someone behind you wants to play to your range above although it's tough to measure how bad it will be to end up in a multiway pot OOP with this pos hand.
You still haven't explained why this play is better than limping.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
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Quote:
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Plays top pair aggro regardless of kicker, passive with anything less
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Quote:
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If for no other reason, then at least to maintain my image and to get a free river.
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since he did not bet the flop he doesn't have TP and won't have it on the turn either so you already have a free river unless he makes some hand you can't beat anyway and therefore do not want a free card. I don't see how checking the flop is bad for your image against the regs if they are good enough to think about things like image and it makes no difference vs the whale.
The way you played the hand is of course fine vs a lot of people, it just doesn't jibe with what you told us in the OP.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
Quote:
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I have to take a stab at some point
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I don't get this at all, you made a marginal at best play pre flop and back it up with a hopeless one? |
There was nothing marginal whatsoever in my preflop play. The regs to my left don't want to play against me if they can avoid it.
Why is my cbet against an 85% range hopeless? I can't just check behind and fold the turn against a fish who likes to stab with his air, cmon what?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
You still haven't explained why this play is better than limping.
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Limping behind doesn't make much sense to me here. The pot is going to be at least four way, probably 5-6 way. I have a weak hand and it's obviously not good enough vs the others.
Elaborate why you would want to limp here?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
Quote:
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Plays top pair aggro regardless of kicker, passive with anything less
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Quote:
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If for no other reason, then at least to maintain my image and to get a free river.
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since he did not bet the flop he doesn't have TP and won't have it on the turn either so you already have a free river unless he makes some hand you can't beat anyway and therefore do not want a free card. I don't see how checking the flop is bad for your image against the regs if they are good enough to think about things like image and it makes no difference vs the whale.
The way you played the hand is of course fine vs a lot of people, it just doesn't jibe with what you told us in the OP. |
It's hard to describe this kind of whale, lol. He was passive with all weak made hands and draws, but he liked to bet his air if others in the pot looked weak. I'm assuming he likely bets two streets to rep the ace if I check behind. AF 1.5 is not completely passive. He was happy putting money in the pot, no matter how it went in.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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I don't see how you know it's a 5-6 way pot with tight regs behind who don't want to play against you.
pre flop is marginal because you are barely ahead before accounting for the action behind. Even if everyone is only playing top 5% it's a significant draw on your equity that can't be ignored. Your post flop skills would not seem to be of much use against someone playing this erratically, except when you're value betting which again we won't be doing much with Q6s.
I suggested limping because your reason for playing the hand seems to be he's going broke soon. So I get playing as many pots as you can but not setting your self up to bluff a station. raising with Q6s doesn't make much sense unless you expect to be able to win a lot of pots without a made hand. The fact that he calls a lot AND likes to bluff just says to me play good hands against him IP. Anything else is going to make his play closer to correct. It's no use attacking the whale if you're playing brine or whatever whales eat.
the more you type it seems like you just wanted to talk about the river and ignore getting there which is fine. I am not a soul reader so I'll let fnord and you talk.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
I don't see how you know it's a 5-6 way pot with tight regs behind who don't want to play against you.
pre flop is marginal because you are barely ahead before accounting for the action behind. Even if everyone is only playing top 5% it's a significant draw on your equity that can't be ignored. Your post flop skills would not seem to be of much use against someone playing this erratically, except when you're value betting which again we won't be doing much with Q6s.
I suggested limping because your reason for playing the hand seems to be he's going broke soon. So I get playing as many pots as you can but not setting your self up to bluff a station. raising with Q6s doesn't make much sense unless you expect to be able to win a lot of pots without a made hand. The fact that he calls a lot AND likes to bluff just says to me play good hands against him IP. Anything else is going to make his play closer to correct. It's no use attacking the whale if you're playing brine or whatever whales eat.
the more you type it seems like you just wanted to talk about the river and ignore getting there which is fine. I am not a soul reader so I'll let fnord and you talk.
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Don't get me wrong, I very much appreciate your feedback.
In this game the small blind is as big as the big blind so that automatically makes it four way if I call. I would estimate that the button would limp behind around 85% of his hands, so that makes it 5 way 85% of the time and takes me out of the driver seat.
I can assure you that assuming I see the flop HU against this villain I will show a very big profit. Because he likes to bluff I really need to cbet the flop, but I don't do it as a bluff, but because of all the other benefits it brings with it.
I think my post flop skills matter a whole lot against any villain. He wasn't playing erratically within his own world of thought. You just need to understand how he thinks about the game and you will find the hidden logic behind his actions.
I ended up calling the river and was shown T9 for T high. I think it was the most counter intuitive call I have ever made, but at the time it still made perfect sense. I couldn't put him on a single paired hand and also felt like he might not feel a need to bluff with K high. The few big hands I thought were in his range didn't seem to match with the information he was voluntarily giving me.
In order to play a hand like Q6s I know I'm going to be faced with tough decisions post flop. I'm not however intimidated by a novice who plays an even wider range of hands and thinks he's got the game all figured out.
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RockyMoose
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04-28-2009, 07:41 PM
Post subject: Re: Strange hand against loose whale
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#26 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 196
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Did he announce his bet or just slide them in?
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Forgive my ignorance, but what does this tell you?
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GatorJH
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04-28-2009, 08:06 PM
Post subject: Re: Strange hand against loose whale
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#27 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RockyMoose
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Did he announce his bet or just slide them in?
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Forgive my ignorance, but what does this tell you? |
I don't play a ton of live poker, but my guess is that announcing his bet could mean a stronger hand. When many people slowly slide their chips into the middle it can mean they are afraid of losing them.
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