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Buckeye
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04-28-2005, 02:45 AM
Post subject: Should I teach my regulars a few things?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 53
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This may be a bad idea, but here it goes.
At my tournies, I am usually in the money ~62.3% of the time, maybe 30% of that in 1st. Not too bad. Obviously I only lose to being blinded out and bad beats, but never to dumb mistakes - lol. (I can work on the last one). Anyway, it's nearly impossible to bluff these guys if they have ANYTHING - they will call huge bets with bottom pair, and many a night the cards are crap for me. So I let them battle it out, ending up with a small stack, fighting my way to the money and trying to stay above the blinds. I've tried playing more hands in the beginning with less than premium cards, but these guys call c.500 bets when the blinds are still c.25 (c.2000 to start) and end up showing a pair or two, with a flush or str8 possibility on the flop, let alone trips. Which brings me to my question since stealing pots early on to prepare for the big blinds later don't work. Should I give some pointers to a couple of my regular tournament players? Don't get me wrong, I like winning. It's just that this is the best / cheapest arena for me to improve my live play, so I can be more confident in a B&M casino.
What do you think?
Thanks,
Buckeye
P.S.. DILEMA:
After writing all this, i'm leaning toward "screw it" and leaving well enough alone so I can keep winning (some players have never even been in the money), but I want to improve my game. ahh hell with it - i'll stick with WINNING. NO, I NEED TO IMPROVE... WIN. NO IMPROVE... WIN. NO IMPROVE... and on and on and on...
HMMM, how can I do both?
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Khabbi
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 381
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I know what you mean Buckeye, I am in the same situation. I host a game with my friends every coupld of weeks and I finish ITM about 80% of the time.
There are a couple guys to bluff and a couple maniacs but generally I can beat them all by their own bad play.
I would leave them alone and try to explore different opportunities. Use the money you make from your own games to try playing in bigger games with better competition.
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TN_POKER_MAN
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 19
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avoid getting into the habit of doing the same thing all the time....with the exception of winning
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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I have a lot of new players at my home game too. They don't have the time or ambition to learn, so I just make sure that I give them a beer and smile to make sure that they are having a good time.
If they want to throw their money around, you might as well be on the receiving end of it.
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TN_POKER_MAN
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 19
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I would resist giving them lessons. Especially in front of everyone in the middle of the game just after they've lost a pot.
The best thing for them is to keep playing, so I'd help them out just enough so that they'll keep coming back and lose their money to you.
Sometimes this might mean that you show your cards when you might otherwise never have and making generic comments about your thoughts that aren't directed to one person in particular like....
"i love playing suited connectors" or
"aces are nice, but playing ace+rag will only get you in trouble"
"gotta raise it pre-flop to chase all those crappy hands outta here"
"i hate pocket jacks, especially when an ace flops"
that's a lot better than saying directed to one single person like..."you shouldn't have called his bet" or "why would you not raise him there?"
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Jason
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 883
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I'm also in that situation almost always finishing ITM and almost always first in cash games. I've found that most of the people I play with get most of their enjoyment from actually playing. They don't like to fold. I, on the other hand, get most of my enjoyment from accumulating chips and will do whatever it takes to do that, which means lots of folding and letting good hands go whenever they look beat.
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- Jason
 
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Buckeye
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 53
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TN_POKER_MAN
I would resist giving them lessons. Especially in front of everyone in the middle of the game just after they've lost a pot.
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That was not the intent - I was leaning more toward a pregame thing.
I like what you said about just making comments throughout the game though. That would be good if consensus ends up being that I should teach them a few things... Damn. Shoulda made this a poll.
Thanks,
Buckeye
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Dunk
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Metrowest Massachusetts
Posts: 131
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I'm in a somewhat similar situation. I like to talk poker with my friends, which can be a subtle teaching/learning experience. Here's some good reasons (I think) why:
1) Your friends will enjoy and play more if they get better
2) Chances are you'll still lead their learning curve
3) You will improve your game at home if they improve, thus making you more able to win more serious stakes with better players
4) The process of teaching them will itself make you improve as you have to explain and respond and think. In any skill, teaching makes you a better user of that skill.
5) They're your friends. As much as you want to take their money once you sit down to play, you value their friendship more than the money (I hope)
john
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Note: new guy and very open to constructive criticism, so go ahead and weigh in! I'm here to learn.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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I think it is a great idea to help your friends, but I think it is a bad idea to offer any unsolicited advice. No matter how well intentioned, it will seem like arrogance on your part.
My policy is if somebody asks me for help, or advice, or to critique their play, I am more than happy to do it. My home games are all about FUN, not money. And playing against good players is way more fun than playing against bad players.
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Fortune 500
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bluffalupagus
Posts: 1,261
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Learn to Adapt your game to them... don't adapt their game to yours. That's the mark of improvement.
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Buckeye
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 53
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fortune 500
Learn to Adapt your game to them... don't adapt their game to yours. That's the mark of improvement.
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Good advice. Had a perfect game friday night. Just had 9 people show up to a $20 buyin (w/ rebuy or addon) and I took 1st pretty easily. 6/9 were decent players, 2 were easy money, and 1 was gonna win it all (took 7th) (may have lost him - never wins). I took the easy money first, and maintained my chip lead for the most part throughout the tourney, camping for decent starting hands and letting them battle it out (example - KQ8 rainbow flop, Q4 AI (decent stacks), a Q5 calls - lol, pretty much impossible to steal any pot with these guys). Had some nice hands - a sweet bb special (T7o, no PF raises, flopped trips, rivered a 4-of-a-kind that put out 4th; then a nut flush that put out 3rd; and top 2Pr to make 1st. I figured out another regular, so I stole a good bit from him. I can't remeber any major mistakes I made - so I'd say it was my best game yet. Anyway, can't brag to my friends or they won't come around anymore. Thankfully there's this place.
LOL,
Buckeye
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Yea, if you keep trying to teach them you'll look Phil Helmuth-ish.
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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I wouldn't make it a pregame thing either. I would say something like, "Hey guys I just got this new video or book on strategy. Does anyone want to hang out later in the week and test some theories?" This way you can play without the lessons inbetween hands and it gives you another night with the guys to just kick it without losing any money in the process.
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Dunk
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Metrowest Massachusetts
Posts: 131
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FyrFytr, that sounds like a great idea. People who are interested in learning can jump in, those who aren't don't feel like you're being patronizing.
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Note: new guy and very open to constructive criticism, so go ahead and weigh in! I'm here to learn.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
I wouldn't make it a pregame thing either. I would say something like, "Hey guys I just got this new video or book on strategy. Does anyone want to hang out later in the week and test some theories?" This way you can play without the lessons inbetween hands and it gives you another night with the guys to just kick it without losing any money in the process.
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That is a good idea.
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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Thanks guys. I have a gem of an idea every now and then. In all seriousness though. It's one way of also getting a read on your regulars. You can see if they are in fact real "students" of the game or just Rounders wannabes.
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CBAT
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 831
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Do not give them lessons. Myself and one other win about 60% of the tourneys that we play in.
I have a good friend, who is very smart, but only an okay pokre player. I started teaching him how to play, about position raising, pot odds, etc. He now places in the money more often, and although it's good for your friend, it is not good for you.
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bluedevil907
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 146
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Yeah, I have the same problem, a lot of people calling huge PF raises with a single face card, so one of them is bound to hit it on the flop if I don't.
I gave up getting pissed over suckouts and decided to just learn how everyone plays and abuse them for their common mistakes while picking up on their standard tells.
For example, a friend of mine plays any hand with a face card, any two connected cards, or any two suited cards. However, once the flop hits, he only bets if he has top pair or better, maybe occasionally if he has two overcards or a pocket pair. I always bet following his check, and he'll usually fold. If he calls, it usually means he's on draw or can't lay down a low pocket pair.
So, while it can be a pain to be playing with a suckout easily overhead, learn to play the player more than just the cards, but don't get tangled up in a hand where you have absolutely no outs, because they might call you all the way with a low pair.
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cowboyardee
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 66
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Same issue here (there's a lot of us)
Anyway, I say that if they're good friends, low stakes, and they're asking for advice, then give it to them -- might as well have fun, and you'll still win enough.
However, if any one of those three do not apply, don't bother, just keep getting better at beating them. In my experience, perfecting a game that crushes bad players is at least as valuable than learning how to do well/alright against good players.
B&Ms have bad players too.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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It's a bad idea to teach people how to play better, at or away from the table, unless they specifically ask you. I've had a few say to me "hey uh, can you give me some pointers, like why do you fold 93o?"
I play in a $5 or $10 homegame every Sunday with some people who have barely learned that straights beat flushes, but instead of telling them how to play or offer advice, I adjust to how they play. I don't bluff, I play slightly looser, and have to make more calls (they bet Jack high to the river)
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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DoGGz
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Friends, go ahead and talk poker with. You are there playing because you are friends not because you are looking to win a ton.
Anyone else. NO WAY. Take advantage of them
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Only if they pay for the lessons. Otherwise there is no way to replace the money you lost by making them play better.
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jukejointroach
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 131
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after a while i figured out some of my friends don't care what i have to say. i've given advice to a few during cigarette breaks.
after they lose with that QTo to 99
"did you know a pocket pair is a slight favorite to two overcards?"
"overcards?"
"cards higher than what's out, like two face cards or something"
"oh"
"never mind. but [insert seemingly helpful but misleading advice here]"
if yer a nice guy and have a friend who genuinely wants to improve his game, help him out. i lent my copy of HEfAP to a friend just for the starting hand info. he was very grateful. and now he'll know just enough to get himself in trouble when i play against him.
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Unite and Annihilate!
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Aquinas
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 319
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I play in a home game with my fellow mathematicians, and they are eager learners. But I don't play with them to make money so I gladly help them improve and show my bluffs and tell them why I bluffed at a certain place in the game. I even let them in on their tells, and occationally give advice on how I would have played a certain hand (when they ask me to). I still end up winning most of the money. But it makes the game a lot more fun (playing 10$ SNGs with fish is not my idea of a good time--maybe if it were 200$ SNGs  ). Also I think this has improved my game since we always show if someones reads were off or on. (sometimes we wait to say till the end of the night though)
It also forces me to switch gears a lot since I've let them in on how I think. Hehe occationally 1 or 2 guests sit in and then all hats are off--they inevitably loose all there chips to one of us.
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jukejointroach
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 131
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treat the poker knowledge you impart the same as a martial arts blackbelt--don't tell 'em everything you know, you might have to use it to kill them one day.
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istoppigeons
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01-03-2006, 06:29 PM
Post subject: make it part of the game
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#26 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1
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this may sound amateurish, but in my 6-8 person home game, discussing our play and strategy is half the fun. we all improve and enjoy drunken debates.
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azureXsmurF
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 170
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For the most part I don't give advise unless asked for (the two times I've had friends over to play)... but I'll make comments like "you played that hand really well" or along those lines to let them know when they're doing good things.
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