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private game: acting out of turn creates stupid spot

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pocketfours

06-24-2009, 05:45 PM Post subject: private game: acting out of turn creates stupid spot

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We're playing dealer's choice and the game is NL crazy pinapple in a private game in a very relaxed atmosphere. Everyone at the table knows each other through poker circles, except for one outsider. We're not playing very high stakes, but still for a substantial amount of money.

Button is a solid player with a 65BB stack. He seems pretty tired and is about to quit the game.

BB (250BB eff) is a friend of mine who I've met through poker. He's not a very close friend, but we're facebook friends and we always talk about poker together when we meet at the local casino. We've also talked about doing some small poker related business together. He is a highly intelligent professional player and has a very mathematical approach to poker. I've also been at his home for a few beers and to talk about poker.

I'm in the SB when this hand happens. People are smoking and talking loudly across the table. There's a lot of additional items at the pokertable that don't belong there, such as cigarette packs, lighters, ashtrays, wallets etc. Way messier than at a casino. Our dealer is also not a professional.

Folded to button who opens to 4BB, I make 21BB with a very bad image from the SB with AhJhTs.

Now button shoves all-in 65BB and I call saying: "Ok, I don't even have a pair but I'll gamble with you". Immediately after that BB announces that he still hasn't folded and says: "I'm still in the hand and since you said you don't have a pair, then I'm all-in." and shoves for 250BB with AcKc2c. I figure I'm committed and call. He rakes in the 565BB pot after which he repeats that he would have folded if I wouldn't have revealed my hand.

I obviously should have paid more attention to the game, and revealing my hand in NLCP preflop is stupid because you need to discard postflop (I didn't care since the guy was short and I would have been happy to loose the 65BB to him). At many casinos it's not legal to raise after two or more people act after you out of turn, but this was a private game without clearly defined rules and obviously no floorman.

Is this acceptable conduct from someone I would consider a friend? No big deal, just want to know what you guys think...

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BankItDrew

06-24-2009, 06:51 PM

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let me get this straight:
folded to Button
Button raises
SB raises
Button shoves
SB calls
BB calls and says lol wtf

If this is the case: All bets should be considered forced bets and counted. All three are all in preflop, although shady. In every game I play (except for a bar game, which is absolutely retarded ruling), out of turn bets count as legal bets.

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pocketfours

06-24-2009, 07:02 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

let me get this straight:
folded to Button
Button raises
SB raises
Button shoves (65BB)
SB calls (65BB)
BB shoves (250BB) and says lol wtf
SB calls and says nh idiot

Corrected. A similar situation occured at the Wynn in LV where the person who didn't notify the table that he has not yet acted lost his option to reraise. The same rule applies at my local casino.

drmcboy

06-24-2009, 07:29 PM

#4 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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I don't think it's possible to play poker with friends for 'substantial amounts' of money. You may be friends off the table but not on. Friends don't use other friends mistakes for profit, at least in my world. I would especially never do this in the kind of setting you describe where any dispute cannot be settled impartially. pretty much all my friends are pay check to pay check, maybe I would feel different if that was not true.

I don't play crazy pineapple so I have no idea what the math here is but assuming his play was good based on what you said about your hand, you're essentially saying he should give you "money"/EV back because you & BU played bad/silly/drunk.

how is this different from asking for your money back because you misread the board and mucked a winner?

the rules are irrelevant since there are no rules and however you guys make 'rulings' it went against you. Again playing a mixed game with no set rules with 'friends' and legit money at stake is just begging for trouble. You put everyone in a spot where they are forced to chose between your friendship and their own well being.

One thing to clarify - was all this instant, or did BU or you deliberate for a while and he sat there and watched without saying anything?

If BB saw what was happening and said nothing to try and gain an edge, he's making a great poker play and he's being a terrible friend. If it was instant, what did you want him to do? Should he intentionally misplay his hand? that's a super slippery slope with a whole bunch of collusion at the bottom.

BankItDrew

06-24-2009, 07:42 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

If BB saw what was happening and said nothing to try and gain an edge, he's making a great poker play and he's being a terrible friend.

I see your point but I disagree, because of this example:
You and good friends are playing football. Opponent (good friend) runs the wrong way with the ball for a safety, while no one on your team says anything. You all laugh about it after.

I don't see why poker should be exclusive just because money is involved. When I play poker with my friends (no matter what the stakes) it's 99% about the bragging rights.

drmcboy

06-24-2009, 08:02 PM

#6 (permalink)

DrButtInski
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it's different because no one's laughing about it later.

also it's clear the money meant something to BB in this pot, and I doubt he's going to use this win for 'bragging rights'. "Remember that time I angle shot you for 550 BBs! Pwned!" So I'm not really sure how any of what you said applies. If there are substantial amounts of money at stake, the money matters.

pocketfours

06-25-2009, 06:31 AM Post subject: Re: private game: acting out of turn creates stupid spot

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So he did give me my preflop EV back after he realized he was out of line. No hard feelings, I just wanted to know what people consider acceptable in 'friendly' games.

TLR

06-25-2009, 07:52 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

So he did give me my preflop EV back after he realized he was out of line. No hard feelings, I just wanted to know what people consider acceptable in 'friendly' games.

Drmcboy point about the timing issue is important, the main question was whether or not this was deliberate. Assuming this was not deliberate I think the way we would have resolved it in our home game is to let the BB call the 65BB but not raise it.

I am trying to understand why you feel committed to this hand, its true you were getting 2:1 on your money, but I dont think you have the odds to call here.

And calling your hand in crazy pineapple before the discard is pretty bad

pocketfours

06-25-2009, 10:03 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

I am trying to understand why you feel committed to this hand, its true you were getting 2:1 on your money, but I dont think you have the odds to call here.

It was clear he didn't have a very big hand. Maybe I still didn't have odds, but I think it's quite close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

And calling your hand in crazy pineapple before the discard is pretty bad

obv

TLR

06-25-2009, 11:01 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

I am trying to understand why you feel committed to this hand, its true you were getting 2:1 on your money, but I dont think you have the odds to call here.

It was clear he didn't have a very big hand. Maybe I still didn't have odds, but I think it's quite close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

And calling your hand in crazy pineapple before the discard is pretty bad

obv

You are in a relatively bad shape vs any 3 broadway cards that include an A or a pair. However I play very little crazy pineapple cash games and even less CP hi only (when we play crazy pineapple in our home game its usually hi lo in a tournament)

swiggidy

06-25-2009, 10:57 PM

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Did you discard the A?

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pocketfours

06-26-2009, 10:42 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Did you discard the A?

The flop came 5QT with two clubs and I discarded the J.

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