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LawDude
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03-01-2009, 03:36 AM
Post subject: playing with your chips
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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I was at an 8-16 kill table at Hollywood Park the other night, and most of the players exhibited all of the typical faults of live poker players-- playing too many hands, not paying enough attention to what other players were doing and processing information, not folding hands that were obviously beat and generally playing like calling stations. I ended up with a fair portion of their money.  But there was one thing these guys did quite well. They had mastered the art(?) of taking two bets' worth of chips out of their stack on every hand they played, attempting to distract other players and represent a raise on every hand by playing with that stack, piling and unpiling those chips, over and over again. (Of course because these guys were actually calling stations, you'd have to be a complete idiot to think that this activity meant they were going to raise.)
I don't personally touch my chips until I am going to bet. As a result, players don't know whether to expect a fold, raise, or call, but I am also not distracting the other players or trying to show off what a "professional" player I am by stacking and re-stacking my chips over and over again.
I don't say that every other player needs to play how I do. (I do say, however, that live players need to learn how to bet, including avoiding string bets, announcing your raises, folding your cards without exposing them, moving chips into the pot in a fashion that doesn't strew them about, acting in turn, and checking in a fashion that is visible to the other players. But that's another story.) I do say, however, that playing with your chips is a classic example of a phony strategy-- something that players do because it is very easy to learn but which probably has an expected value very close to zero.
At a minimum, you shouldn't be playing with your chips until you can make a consistent profit playing poker. Imagine if these players put as much thought into not making negative expected value plays that they put into determining how many chips to play with and how to play with them!
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floptquadswunc
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 44
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u, sir, are correct. Here in the Sunshine state most people are new to poker. They get their etiquette from tv and what their best friend, Hoss, did the last time they played poker in the garage. Hoss went to Vegas once and actually ran into Gabe Kaplan, so he must know what is acceptable at the table.
Exposing cards, acting out of turn, talking about the hand, reacting to cards that show on the flop (when they're not in the hand), making moves with chips, fake folding, asking for a count when you know you're folding, and my personal favorite the stall for tv time.
Unreal.
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naturalassassin
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03-01-2009, 08:53 AM
Post subject: Re: playing with your chips
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#3 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
At a minimum, you shouldn't be playing with your chips until you can make a consistent profit playing poker. Imagine if these players put as much thought into not making negative expected value plays that they put into determining how many chips to play with and how to play with them!
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I imagine a tougher table if everyone knows what they are doing. I think playing with their chips is useful information.
I've played with my chip-stack when I bluff sometimes and been given credit for a good hand. Other situations, I've done it intentionally when I'm strong too only to not get paid off. I don't like to do it but I get bored sometimes. I usually don't rely on it as solid tell because I'm not confident to it's interpretation. So how do you know what playing with your chipstack means?
do you take a baseline for the rhythm of his/her movements? Does he/she do it automatically after an action. Does this mean it's likely a subconscious response or an intentional response. What does it all mean in full color?
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Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.
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LawDude
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03-02-2009, 12:10 AM
Post subject: Re: playing with your chips
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#4 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by naturalassassin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
At a minimum, you shouldn't be playing with your chips until you can make a consistent profit playing poker. Imagine if these players put as much thought into not making negative expected value plays that they put into determining how many chips to play with and how to play with them!
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I imagine a tougher table if everyone knows what they are doing. I think playing with their chips is useful information.
I've played with my chip-stack when I bluff sometimes and been given credit for a good hand. Other situations, I've done it intentionally when I'm strong too only to not get paid off. I don't like to do it but I get bored sometimes. I usually don't rely on it as solid tell because I'm not confident to it's interpretation. So how do you know what playing with your chipstack means?
do you take a baseline for the rhythm of his/her movements? Does he/she do it automatically after an action. Does this mean it's likely a subconscious response or an intentional response. What does it all mean in full color? |
I might agree with this analysis when you are talking about advanced poker players. (Although I doubt anyone REALLY knows whether their chip stacking caused someone to fold.)
But in the games I play in, I look pretty closely at what people are doing, and I have very rarely seen anyone who gets beyond the general "play with 2 big blinds worth of chips so that it always looks like I'm gonna raise" line. And as I said, a lot of these people who are doing it are poor poker players. The real point I was making is that if you have mastered poker fundamentals and are a winning player, that's the time to think about what you might be doing with your chips. Until that point, a player should be focused on processing information, making reads, and learning how to play one's hands.
One other thing, and please don't take this as a criticism. I wouldn't recommend doing this as a remedy for poker boredom. All throughout the game, players are giving you information about their style of play. If you can play with your chips and still remember everything that everyone is doing in the hand, that's great. But what you may be doing is distracting yourself.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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I'm not gonna lie, I play with my chips at the table ALL the time. Whether I'm in the hand or not, strong or weak, bluffing or value betting I always have the chips rattling. I just shuffle them tho, I don't play stupid little games with them or anything, like rolling them from one hand to the other then back. It actually HELPS me focus on the game tbh.
I'm not really sure why, but hearing poker chips getting stacked and restacked is soothing for me lol. I even play with them when I play online. I will shuffle them with my left hand, and play with my right.
However, I agree that you should be winning fairly consistently and should be able to focus while u do it.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dranger7070
I'm not gonna lie, I play with my chips at the table ALL the time. Whether I'm in the hand or not, strong or weak, bluffing or value betting I always have the chips rattling. I just shuffle them tho, I don't play stupid little games with them or anything, like rolling them from one hand to the other then back. It actually HELPS me focus on the game tbh.
I'm not really sure why, but hearing poker chips getting stacked and restacked is soothing for me lol. I even play with them when I play online. I will shuffle them with my left hand, and play with my right.
However, I agree that you should be winning fairly consistently and should be able to focus while u do it. |
When Poker Chips start showing up in your dreams, that's the time to seek professional help. 
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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lol yea it hasn't gotten to that point... yet. 
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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I must admit that sometimes I get distracted because i'm trying to learn new tricks at the table. But I generally pay attention and most of my shuffle, spin, flip tricks are just automatic to me.
I often follow a routine of grabbing a stack and counting out a few piles and then repile them while im thinking about my actual decision. I do the same routine pretty much every time so there is no tell involved.
Sometimes I notice when I am pondering a raise, certain player's will grab for chips in a weak attempt to make me not bet, probably because they want to draw cheaply. Really novice players grab their chips without even looking at you because they have a hand and want to bet.
Doing poker tricks is fun and kills time in between hands and helps to keep me focused since I had some minor ADD.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Adderall does wonders for my game.
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Taicho
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 102
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I shuffle chips always. Watching TV, on the computer, etc, I always have a stack of 10-12 in front of me. It's a habit at this point.
So there's really no way to avoid playing with them at a live table if they're in front of me >_>
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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I have the same problem taicho lol my mom gets so pissed off whenever I come home and i start playing with them. 
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ArcadianRock
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 295
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Daniel Negreanu and all those pros have agents that find them work and poker tournaments and they receive special comps to do that type stuff. When cameras are around people expect a show rather than boring poker like online.
Poker in essence is a very boring thing to watch, playing is fun, but not watching so the cameras love Phil Hellmuth even though that's not such a good idea.
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kfaess
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 556
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Adderall does wonders for my game.
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lol my brother has tried this a few times when studying for exams. He said he just goes in the zone and busts out work like nothing. One time he worked till like 6am then finished studying but couldn't go to bed, so he cleaned his entire room.
Never connected it to poker though. Haven't tried the stuff myself but I would imagine it would be tons easier to gather info/sit there for hours playing poker when you're that focused and paying so much attention??
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2ndline.4thstreet
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 120
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I don't mind playing live games with guys that get all their moves from TV. More chips coming my way when that happens. I play with my chips too - helps me focus on something when others are trying to get a read on me. Trouble with that is that I have to do it all of the time and not just on solid hands etc...
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 2ndline.4thstreet
I don't mind playing live games with guys that get all their moves from TV. More chips coming my way when that happens. I play with my chips too - helps me focus on something when others are trying to get a read on me. Trouble with that is that I have to do it all of the time and not just on solid hands etc...
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Well, is it helping you focus on something or is it helping your opponents read you? Or both?
Personally, when I am involved in a hand, I check my cards twice pre-flop, once before betting and once after, and never look at them again until showdown. Then, I put my elbows on the table and lean into my interlocked hands, covering my mouth. And except when I announce a raise or reach down to bet, I maintain this posture until I fold or show down the hand. The only tell I could possibly be giving off is eye blinking, and I think wearing sunglasses indoors is silly, so I guess I'll just have to live with this "leak".
I can't say for certain that doing it this way is better than playing with one's chips. But I can say that anything you do, any motion you make, has at least the potential of being an unconscious tell. And I can also say that when you are always playing with a min-raise amount of chips post-flop (which is usually what players are doing, so as to imply that they might raise), only a total fish who is exploitable in 1,000 other ways is going to be fooled by that. Seems like a moderate risk-little reward action to me.
But as I said in the beginning, I'm not against people playing with their chips if they've plugged all the major leaks in their game. But people who are playing crappy poker shouldn't be worrying about how to play with their chips like a pro.
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