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melinda27
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08-11-2004, 08:16 PM
Post subject: Playing against women
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 165
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Do you guys treat us different than you would if you were playing against a guy? I've noticed that I get played alot differently at a table than they would play a hand against another player. The reason I ask is because I had a hand today which didnt upset me, but just made me think about it. I was playing NL sitngo and i got dealt kq, i raise it and get 3 callers. flop comes 7KQ rainbow. the pot is about 450 (this is a tournament) I have about 2500 and am 2nd place at the time. I raise 450, everyone drops except 1 guy calls. turn comes and its an 8. I bet 900 or so to put the guy all in. He calls and turns over A8 of clubs, catches an A on the river and says something like "maybe this game isnt for you princess" or something stupid. All I could say was, "nice catch, but I made the right play. You made the wrong play" and then he just LoL's. I went on to take him out later when he tried to bluff me with garbage and I had low pair. I shouldnt have called him down but his comments earlier had upset me and if i had lost that hand i still would have been in good position anyway, but it was still bad poker and I let it get to me. Do you guys treat women at the table the same way or is a good card player a good card player no matter what?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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People can be asses at the poker table, particularly online because of the lack of eye contact. Swap the gender specific stuff with gender neutral stuff and it was just plain 'old uncreative trash talk I see everyday. If some random degenerate saying "bitch" puts you on tilt, you're in trouble.
Don't defend your play at the table. What could you possibly gain even if you convinced him you're a good player and played it right? If you want him to know that he sucked out on you (so he thinks twice about calling again?!?), say "nice catch" or "nice river" and move on.
Also, poker is a game of deception. Being a woman at a poker table is going to create a certain first impression. Learn how to exploit it.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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i wouldn't treat a woman any differently online or live. i'm generally not a butthead to anyone (unless provoked  ). as there's no upper-body strength advantage in poker, i also wouldn't under estimate a female player.
live, i would be more cautious if there was a woman at my table just because i think women are much more aware of tells.
in fact, my wife has caught me giving her a look when even i didn't know i was doing it! 
if some bozo is going to make gender comments, you can surely put him on tilt with a good slowplay. if he's rude again, just chat back to him "i'll use your chips to buy nail polish."
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i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Re: first impressions.
Classic B&M steriotype for a woman is either weak/loose/call or weak/loose/fold. But then again, so many players play like this...
I've seen people online that represent themselves as female run the gambit from the weak/loose/call, weak/tight/fold to tight/solid to flat out manic. However, I see so few that I haven't noticed a difference between women and men. Online handles and pictures, tend to give me more of a first impression (or tell me the impression they want me to have.)
For example:
Joe468 - Some guy trying out online poker. Probably typical/bad
BigSlick5821 - As above, but has shown a trivial amount of poker knowledge. Probably watched a couple TV shows or read a book.
PLAYMONEEE - Maniac or wants you to think he's one
ProfSnape - Neutral, took time to pick a reasonable handle.
On Poker Stars really bad (red eye, not centered, etc) pictures of yourself/family/kid/dog also tends to be the mark of a casual/bad player.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Very interesting topic.
Personally, I don't consider gender when I play poker. Bad players (or good players, for that matter) are not unique to either sex. The only reason there haven't been more women winning bracelets at the WSOP is simply because there haven't been more women playing poker. That's all changing now.
If someone at your table has pre-conceived notions of you as a player simply based on your gender, then I'd be inclined to consider that guy to be a poor player and probably has not been playing for very long (as this particular example of yours illustrated).
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Fortune 500
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bluffalupagus
Posts: 1,261
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YOu know, in our home games, we used to not let women play. It wasn't discriminatory, it was just that poker was more of a "guys night out" kind of thing. Only one or two of our wives/significant others even showed any interest. I wouldn't let my wife play because that'd be like paying 200 bucks for me to sit in on a 100 dollar game, but we sort of kept it as guys night....
That being said, several months ago, I went to a different home game, and there were two women there. First time I'd played live against women (online, plenty of times) but they were tight serious players, and within a round were treated like anyone else - I wanted to break them 
Seriously, I don't see it as any different. I look at them as I do anyone else at the table. They're holding MY money.
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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Doyle Brunson said in Super system that he doesn't like playing with women. I thought this was stupid until I read his reasoning. He said he was taught to respect women, but he shows little to no respect at the poker table. It's not a sexist thing, it's a chivalry thing.
My wife plays poker a lot (she found it's the only way to spend time with me) and she's pretty good. I do a lot to intimidate her, and she used to be intimidated, but now she's not.
I don't do it because she's a woman, it's because she's my wife.
Last night I had AQ, I raised and she called. The flop came and I paired my aces. I raised the max and she called. Everyone else folded so it was jut me and her. Honestly, one of my thoughts was that even if I lose this money to her, we will still have it when we get home. No big deal.
So after she called on the flop, I raised $2 (max bet) in the dark for the turn. She called again, so I threw out another $2 in the dark. I never did this with anyone else. I wouldn't have. I just wanted to have fun and try to push my wife around.
BTW, she called every bet and showed her trips to beat my pair. She took my money and she made sure to give me crap at every oportunity. I wouldn't have it any other way. I love her, but I feel it's my duty as a husband to give her a headache at least once a day. 
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Ever heard of a guy called Shakespeare, Fnord? He had some good advice about how much stock to put into a name.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
Ever heard of a guy called Shakespeare, Fnord? He had some good advice about how much stock to put into a name.
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He also had some great advise about mixing alcohol and sex.
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ArtHolmberg
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 37
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Women can play as well as men, and as such, receive no special treatment from me.
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"Look, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker within your first 30 minutes at the poker table, then you ARE the sucker."
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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I guess I'll be the first man here to admit that when I pull up to a table. If a woman is sitting in, I'm thinking about taking everychip she got. Is it because I'm a chauvanist? No.
It's just been my experience that the number of serious female players are few and far between. The same can be said for men, but being that this is a male dominated game, the females tend to stick out more. What can I say, I like to look at the ladies. And after a few hands I will know just how serious a player they are.
Here are the three types of female poker players I see when I go to the Casino. (Remember Just MY opinion)
1. Legit Females- There to take your money.
2. Most Younger Females- There because their guy friends are playing and they wann be cool too.
3. Elderly Females- Because they got nothing else to do.
Like I said, that same list can be applied to males also. The females just stick out more to me. Plus, deep down, what self respecting man wants to be owned at the table by a member of the fairer sex? 
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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I try to watch everyone at the table and judge them on their play, not outside factors.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Caro states the following in his book of tells:
"As a general rule, women are harder to bluff than men."
I haven't noticed this online. It could be my imagination, but I've observed that women characters on PP tend to play more solid and discliplined than your average PP'er. By this I mean that they rarely try to bluff, and rarely try to chase cards. If a woman character bets on PP, I tend to give it more respect than I do a male character. And I am more willing to bluff if I'm heads up or 3-way with a girl character.
I've only one time in all my playing come across a female character maniac.
When playing against a female character, I assume this stereotype unless she gives me reason to believe otherwise.
I also play a weekly home game with 2 gals and 4 or 5 guys. In this game, I haven't been able to make any generalizations. The girls play it the same as everybody else.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
3. Elderly Females- Because they got nothing else to do.
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Has anyone else seen the Party Poker commercial where they show a "grandma" logging on to play?
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Humphrind
Doyle Brunson said in Super system that he doesn't like playing with women. I thought this was stupid until I read his reasoning. He said he was taught to respect women, but he shows little to no respect at the poker table. It's not a sexist thing, it's a chivalry thing.
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You have to keep in mind that SS was written in the 70s, these days DB regularly plays Jennifer Harmon in the biggest cash games in the world.
She has also been doing well in the tounreys she plays in, best female player in the world and one of the best players in the world...
She also looks pretty hot
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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Inotreb
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 11
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Normally when I sit at a table and I see any female pics or prefessional poker pcs I'll block the image so I don't try to stereotype them. I try to keep everyone on level ground till I can watch them a bit to see how they play. This seems to help me, cuz I know if I was being bluffed by a Phil Ivey or Teddy KGB pic I may think differently...lol
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Gender and pictures online I will not base any type of my plays on, live game or internet... The only thing that I remember when playing a female is Caro’s "typically women are harder to bluff", other then that I treat them the same and I do on occasions bluff at them, I know I can take the pot, but that's not based on sex what so ever that's based on the persons play. Women and men are on the same level when I sit at a table, until I can get the types of players my opponents are. As said before you hear a lot of shit talk at a poker table, got to let it roll of your shoulder and not go on tilt, they are only talking shit for two reasons 1) to get you off your game and make you play worse then them because they know you're bettor then they are or 2) they are trying to piss you off enough to call them.
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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Poker is a mind game, not a physical game. If there was a woman at my table I would treat her no differently than every other player. Because people's minds are not affected by gender (some say that women are more intelligent than men). People I play poker with are not men and women, they are POKER PLAYERS.
However, if I was playing rugby against a woman I would of course treat them differently (as I'm sure anyone would). That's because women are PROVEN to be (generally) physically weaker than men. And I would feel like a darn sicko to rugby takle a woman with full force.
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JJgoneMAD
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 143
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Men treat women at poker tables differently, PERIOD. Apparently most FTR members are not like that, or at least you guys just want to show support to melinda. Men treat women like losers when, i guess i should say we, we play video games against them for god sakes, does anyone think poker is easier than any video game out there? My answer is NO. Do you have an advantage in any videogames if you are stronger, taller, or faster? For 99% of games out there, the answer is no. Trust me, i used to own a video game shop and i played hundreds of games. I know someone who's got two PP account, one his and one under his sister's name. He says he usually plays with his sis's account to take advantage of some of the streotype men have against women poker players. He averages more $$ per hour playing with his sis's account, he's been playing for about a year now consistently, so i have no reason to doubt his reasoning behind playing as a female.
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hazelblue
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 76
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I guess it depends on where you play.
Most times I've played on and offline, there hasn't been much of a difference, except the first time I played.
People thought I was inexperienced and didn't know I was doing. Someone pointed out that it was free to check (I had flopped my first nut flush). They were surprised when I showed my hand.
I guess it depends on where you play.
I care less about gender and tend to care more about how a person plays at a table.
It would be nice to see more women in the WSOP finals someday, though.
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Aces
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 832
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I'm probably in the minority, but I play mostly SNGs at PP and normally don't even notice whether the name indicates male/female other than making notes about their play as needed for the right one. In live games, I don't treat them any differently, just as any male player. Unless of course they're showing some cleavage
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Krapp
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 313
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I like it when women are at a Poker table, especially live. The game becomes more sociable and friendly. Most of the time at the live tables, Im playing against
(1) Grandpa/Grandma: Taking their chips makes me feel like I draining their pension plan. Or worse yet, when I get beat, Im feeling extra young and immature. Theres the grumpy version of grandpa, which they just swear under their breathe when you beat them.
(2) Drunk guy: Ok, they are rude, smelly, and loose. The only enjoyment is waking them up to bet and taking their money. Bad beats are especially stressful against these folks. Just dont sit near me or breathe on me.
(3) The calculating scientist guy. They dont talk, look at you, etc., they just play poker. Not very exciting socially.
(4) Theres the barely 21 years old guy. Overall, enjoyable to play against. They seem to be chatty and humerous, unless there overly drunk or sleepy.
(5) The "regulars". Mostly nice to play at a table. They are their a few days a week and are friends with the other regulars. Enjoyable table.
(6) The business travelers: Good to play with also. Nice discussions on why they are travelling. To date, all business travellers at poker tables have been men. What are the odds of women travelling during business and then spending their nights at a poker room?
I have yet to come across a rude or abnoxious female poker player at a live game. (although my experience is limited)
Overall, in online situations (not just poker, but chat rooms, online rpg games), I am guessing when men (especially in men dominated environments) notice a female in the room they either:
(1) Become firtatious
(2) Arrogant. Their attitude.. "This game isnt meant for women". Poker is combative in nature and men wont like get beaten by women or might think women dont belong in combat. Also not helping is some typical stereotypes they might have... "Mens night out is poker night (to get away from the wives)", "Women arent good at these games", "Women dont take these games seriously"
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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Women are an interesting element. Online, I think it is meaningless. You could be playing a 12 yr old, me or an old lady...who the hell knows? It is in live games that it really becomes an issue. In casinos, I have played against solid middle aged women who played fine, as well as young college age girls who were calling stations (cute too). I don't think it is wise to make a pre-judgement until you watch them play for an hour or so.
One interesting observation from home games in which girlfriends and wives play too: My wife and some other females have a "chip" on their shoulder. If you make a big bet into them, they tend to call it, thinking that you are trying to be the big hairy bully. So when you have a big hand you can extract extra chips b/c they make loose calls. Hence, you also have to tread lightly when you bluff.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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My wife plays now on my old PP account (I've moved to PS) she is pretty tight, doesn't play enough draw hands IMHO, so she tends to wait for pairs, win when she gets them, finish fourth or so in an SNG if she doesn't.
I play her heads up sometimes with house money... it's always very tough, we usually will split if we go heads up 4 times.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Online - I have seen solid play from women, or people who claim to be women.
In our casual home games - women almost always lose. They tend to stay with 2nd pair alot, overvalue pocket pairs, etc. I saw one person mention that Mike Caro says "Women are harder to bluff." In Supersystem, DB says that you can't bluff a bad player.
I am talking about women in casual games, who don't play much. I haven't played B&M yet, so I can't comment on that. I have noticed that women in micro limit games are near impossible to push out of a pot if they have any kind of hand.
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Scotch Rock
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 15
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I don't purposefully play any differently against female players, but I have found that for some reason I tend to not put women on a bluff when they raise or re-raise as often as I would most male players. I guess that comes from the fact that most of the women in my life are more honest and direct that the guys I know. I doubt that such tendencies translate to the poker table, so this is a weakness in my game that I wasn't even aware of until just recently.
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You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.
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hig13
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 25
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I just came upon this post, and it's pretty interesting. It's funny because we are having a couples poker night tomorrow night. I will have to say I do play different when playing against women. The biggest change is that I'm not nearly as aggressive with all my chips because I don't want to be the one that got busted out by my buddies’ wife.
When I've played with women live, I find myself trying to intimidate them with my betting. That's not far from my normal strategy, but it just feels odd doing that to a female. I do like playing with females, but I have to say, my game does change.
A couple other live game observations. Chatty girls tend to give more tells by how much and when they talk more than do most guys. Suggestion, never talk when you have cards in play. Many of the females I've played, play as well as males against males, but against other females they don't always do as well. That might just be my point of view, but even my wife agrees with that.
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Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy.
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PokerMaster
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 28
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i hate playing with women, personally i respect them outside a poker table, but inside a poker table ill take she sh it out of them. THEY ARE DANGEROUS!!!!
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Corey
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 1,349
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In live poker games, I hope the dont wear something low cut my mind and eyes seem to travel away from the game to something along the lines of my avatar.
For online I treat them the same way as anyone else.
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Corey
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LockLow34
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 266
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It makes no difference to me at all. A person puts their chips on the table, I'm gonna do my best to take them no matter their sex.
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Natrix
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 49
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Well I hate to say it, maybe some of you are thinking it too. But for us SINGLE guys, when I sit at a table with an attractive girl, its like Annie Duke said, Most guys have this damn instinct to date and impress these women. Trust me, I try hard not to talk to them, flirt, even make eye contact, cause I am going to be honest, if she even starts talking to me, or showing any interest, its going to ruin my concentration. Now you married old farts probably don't get that. Your gain Just kidding.
I just need more practice.... Any ladies having an all girls Poker night that I could "practice" at?
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LockLow34
I'm gonna do my best to take them no matter their sex.
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The question is whether your best is less good vs. women. I think I agree with Natrix; it's not difficult if they're totally indifferent, but when they start Duking you need to be extra-careful.
And I'm a married fart.
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PokerMaster
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 28
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some guys like me get intimidated by a woman or girl on a room, not online but live , i can tell u something they got BALLS !!!!!
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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And cooties. Girls are icky.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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ryoung11
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 16
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the simple answer is yes. and anyone that says it's exactly the same is lying.
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steelwheel
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 162
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Humphrind
Doyle Brunson said in Super system that he doesn't like playing with women. I thought this was stupid until I read his reasoning. He said he was taught to respect women, but he shows little to no respect at the poker table. It's not a sexist thing, it's a chivalry thing
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thats basically how I feel too. Because when I sit down at the poker table,
I do everything I can to manipulate my opponents and take their money off them. And I just dont feel comfortable doing this to a female.
But I do like playing with a female or two. As I usually end up flirting with them while we are playing. Heads up holdem against a female developes great sexual tension in the atmosphere. well it does for me anyway
Anyway, as I was saying, I dont like trying to manipulate females at the table, its good and easy againstother guys but against females I just dont feel right doing it, and Ive noticed females are much harder to manipulate and bluff than guys.
steel wheels
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There is more to poker than life
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elanto
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,117
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Ive never played poker against a woman before, so its realy hard for me to give an opinion, I just doubt that i would treat woman differently than guys on a poker table
-anto
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<dwarfman> No I had sex for the first time on 23rd March 2005 at 11.56pm.
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Sykedupp
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 550
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kinda hard to say what you would and wouldnt do if you have never done it, isnt it anto?
But i know what you mean... ive never played a women live before either!
-Chris
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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elanto
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,117
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sykedupp
But i know what you mean... ive never played a women live before either!
-Chris
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heheeh, well i did play strip poker with my gf once, and i really really wanted to beat here and take all her chips, eh clothe, does that count ?
p.s. ot was a nice night :P
-anto
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<dwarfman> No I had sex for the first time on 23rd March 2005 at 11.56pm.
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ectomorph
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 21
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For whatever reason, I play tighter against women. Someone else said they are less likely to raise/reraise on a bluff and I tend to agree. Women also "seem" to be harder to bluff. But I do notice a female screename and watch them a little closer initially than I do other players.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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I hardly even notice screen names. I don't consider the avatar or name at all, I just get a read on players' style of play and use that to help my reads.
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Usuyami
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Krapp
I like it when women are at a Poker table, especially live. The game becomes more sociable and friendly.
Overall, in online situations (not just poker, but chat rooms, online rpg games), I am guessing when men (especially in men dominated environments) notice a female in the room they either:
(1) Become firtatious
(2) Arrogant. Their attitude.. "This game isnt meant for women". Poker is combative in nature and men wont like get beaten by women or might think women dont belong in combat. Also not helping is some typical stereotypes they might have... "Mens night out is poker night (to get away from the wives)", "Women arent good at these games", "Women dont take these games seriously"
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I play solely live games atm and alot of the times, there are females present. I have to admit that I play really different against them, especially if they are attractive. I've told a few of them flat out a couple of times to fold when I go all-in with the nuts because I know they would call. I don't make as much money but I do get to become friendly with them. lol! ^^;
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whileone
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 306
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Usuyami
I don't make as much money but I do get to become friendly with them. lol! ^^;
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well, as long as youre' getting those big hands paid off, i guess that's fine
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toontown
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02-06-2005, 02:55 PM
Post subject: big generalization, but most women do play differently...
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#44 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6
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Brunson hit on it with the harder to bluff remark, but that only touches the surface. There was another authority, I forget who, that said once a woman has decided to play a hand, almost nothing will make her fold it. I put it down to women having a more highly developed sense of intuition. They trust their guts more, and are less likely to second guess. All of the posts here that mentioned specific hands back it up. It's good and bad...if you hit the best possible hand against a woman, bet it harder than you would against a more timid player, but beware the female caller if you're second best.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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"I guess that comes from the fact that most of the women in my life are more honest and direct that the guys I know."
wow. never have i heard someone say something more opposite to what i've experienced.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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