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athoughts
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04-24-2004, 06:03 AM
Post subject: Playing the 95% bluffer..
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
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Hi, I play in house games mostly so this is not a thread about online play...
But, every week i sit up against this guy, a GOOD strong aggresive player who knows his shit, but who seriously bluffs 95% of the time, but when ppl do call him, he always ends up pulling shit on the river..
if i wait it out for good cards, he knows i have cards and he folds, so i never make money off of him..
It seems as if he has no group of starting hands, he plays anything and everything and raises each bet... so when i call the blind bet, i catch nothing on the flop, its raised by him.., so sure enouph i have to fold, or ill draw my aces or any pair to the river cause im on tilt. When i call him to the river, I always have him beat with ace high, until he catches his 5 or some bs on the river..
So my question is, how should i go about playing against someone like this??
advice, tips, anything..
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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I have player just like that in my home game, except i go on tilt because of him and give it away to the other players. GRRR
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{This post has been removed}
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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I would continue to play against him as much as possible. He may get lucky in the short run but in the long run this is exactly the type of opponent you want. When you have good cards raise him big. This way he is either paying too much to try and outdraw you or he is folding and giving you the pot without you risking a showdown.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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{Moved from Hold'em Strategies}
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Bite
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 113
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Sounds like he has some nice instincts if he raises big at all hands but allways "knows" when you got a hand and folds. If this is the case he is not such a bad player and definitely not the player I'd want in my game. Try to get him on your right side when you are having a seat and beat him at his own game. If every raise by him is reraised by you what is he gonna do? Move all in? Try not to get emotional just try to outplay him. Or try to reraise him a couple of times with rags and then take him out big when you finally get a hand. I don't really know. These players can be really tricky to deal with. Especially if he shifts gears.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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heres a few things I do againt someone like this. (these are some things I do in limit hold'em.. Doing thesein NL can have much larger swings than in Limit.)
It sounds like he's got you scared and your only playing "the nuts"
Start Semi-bluffing.
If you know he's going to fold when you have a hand bet more often. He'll start to think your bluffing and call more often.
Check Raise
Check raise your top pair or whatever once or twice. Heck check raise your 4 to a flush on the flop.
Call him down.
Take a hand to the river. Maybe something you osuldn't normaly play, top pair no kicker. Start calling him down more. If he's taking down pots uncontested he's not going to stop.
All of these are so that your changing your normal game play. He's got a good read on you.
If your only playing top pair/kicker against someone its easy to fold to you.
Your goal is to change up your game a bit so someone else notices. Your throwing them a curve. Once they notice and start playing differently against you go back into your normal game.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Mike's suggestions sound pretty solid.
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Ragingguitarist18
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 235
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agree with mike, maybe you should play some other hands like a 6-7 suited? if you catch a good flop and show it down he might see you're not just waiting for the great hands and might pay you off next time you get them.
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athoughts
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
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yeah sounds like alot of great advice here..
only problem is.. everytime i do try to out play him, he actually has something and i get smoked
for ex. the other day, the flop was ace, jack, king...i have (8,3) Him knowing i play good cards, i bet into him to try to take the pot right there, he re raises... i call to see if i catch something on the turn, i dont... but yet i still play as if i have aces, i bet. he re raises, i fold.
he then shows me his cards, he has poket aces, which the flop gave him trips... HORRIBLE time to try to steal the pot and bluff against him, put me on tilt till i lost all of my money
this has happened more then once to him... always just puts me on tilt..
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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I've done that before.. try to play a hand at the wrong time.
sucks when your betting into the nuts 
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heatman
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04-26-2004, 10:03 PM
Post subject: A few more ideas
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#12 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 312
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Sklansky says if a player is bluffing a little more than what is approximately correct, then you need to induce a bluff when you know you have him beat. Encourage him to bluff more by showing weakness when you've hit your hand, then make sure you call or raise and beat him. The nice thing about that trick is that it shouldn't cost as much as trying to outbluff him, unless of course he hits that 5 on the end.
Even if he does hit it, you might rattle him a little. He can't always hit his hand on the end, and if he's as good as he sounds he knows when he's gotten lucky. He may be smiling outside, but inside he's thinking, holy crap - where did that come from.
Once you've set him up with that, you can vary your play a little with any of the other ideas. And make him pay for those draw outs. If he's continuously calling against bad odds, he can't win forever.
Also, since its a live game, maybe you're doing something that tips him off to your hand? Figure out what it is and stop doing it, or do it on purpose to mislead him.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by athoughts
for ex. the other day, the flop was ace, jack, king...i have (8,3) Him knowing i play good cards, i bet into him to try to take the pot right there, he re raises... i call to see if i catch something on the turn, i dont... but yet i still play as if i have aces, i bet. he re raises, i fold.
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WTF are you calling with? WTF can you hope to draw here?
Respect the raise and throw it in.
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athoughts
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
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drawing to catch anything cause he didnt have shit and i knew that, he just goes in over the top no matter what
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by athoughts
drawing to catch anything cause he didnt have shit and i knew that, he just goes in over the top no matter what
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'
You can't call a possible bluff with nothing. Sounds like he's owning you god-like.
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Bite
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 113
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Noone can be lucky all the time. If he's taking you'r money consistently either he is doing something right or you are doing something wrong. Sorry to say but it definitely sounds like he owns you big time like mr. Fnord just said. Find an easier game or improve your own play.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bite
Noone can be lucky all the time. If he's taking you'r money consistently either he is doing something right or you are doing something wrong. Sorry to say but it definitely sounds like he owns you big time like mr. Fnord just said. Find an easier game or improve your own play.
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Sounds like he's a master of playing the other player's cards. Most of the time most hold'em hands miss the flop. If you can get more than your fair share of flop misses...
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johnnyawe
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05-07-2004, 10:44 PM
Post subject: calling a bluff
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#18 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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I don't think its good to call a bluff or bet into a bluff if you have nothing. However, if I have been playing a tight game thus far and I am absolutely POSITIVE another player is bluffing me, one strat I have is to re-raise him or check-raise him a HUGE amount even if I have nothing. The idea is to make him think you've been slow playing something and get him to fold out. I've only done this once or twice on PP, but it has worked.
Never do this more than once at the same table. Also, if the guy is a complete maniac he may go ahead and call it anyways, so it may not work with your guy.
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evilevilmatt
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Straight
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Binghamton,NY
Posts: 112
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I would suggest you slow play the heck outta the good hands you do get. Use his aggresion against him. I love the check raise. More effective if you check alot and then dont raise. So when the check raise hits its unexpected.
After that if he beats you on the river, tip your hat and just go on to the next hand and do the same thing. Grind it out.
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Now with more Evil and a side of Hatred
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Blackstar
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Plymouth Meeting, PA
Posts: 23
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Being godzilla at your table is an absolute must. he's not a 95% bluffer if he's always taking the money down. You are getting pwned by a better player. He can read his opponent better than you think he can. Raising with 56 off may seem crazy but when the flop is 5 6 A he now can be pretty sure the people still in the pot don't have A5 or A6 and give the business to AK and AQ. It has nothing to do with the cards. Also, in poker, the easiest thing to do is bet. When you bet, you can sit back and collect information from people like you. If you take too long, I know you are on a draw and I will make sure you don't get another card past the turn if the turn is garbage. If you re-raise me, folding is an option also. The thing is with players who bet too much and are not good, they are going to call their money away sooner or later. You just have to be there when he does...
If you wait for the cards then you are going to get dominated.
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You don't have to have the nuts. Just the balls!
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Blackstar
Being godzilla at your table is an absolute must. |
I agree and if the cards let you down, you can just eat everyone, or blast them with your eye beams !!!
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You can't call a possible bluff with nothing.
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That's true. Just last night, at a live game. I knew my friend didn't have anything. But he kept betting big. I had a bad hand too. I really considered calling him down on his bluff, but all I had was a pair of 2s. I folded after the turn.
He even admitted later that he was bluffing, but I had my doubts whether my hand was good enough.
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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I've called down someone more than once in a limit game with a pair of Ducks and more often than not MHIG  Its quite satisfying, "You ain't got shit and i'm going to prove it :P"
Sometimes i'll do it for advertisement, let people know i wont be bluffed out of a pot, can be expensive but i think its worth it.
I don't do this everytime btw, just occasionaly if i think someones bluffing. Fight for the Blinds kind of a time.
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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I had a simliar player like that at a tourney tonight. She played every and any hand. And when ever it was checked to her. She would bet to "Keep it Honest." What a crock of crap. My only problem was that I had nothing to go back at her with. And even when she was beat she'd still go to the river.
What hurt me and cost me first place was the fact that she was able to take alot of pots that I wasn't involved in. And by the time we got to head up she had almost triple my stack. The table was really weak and not getting any cards hurt me. And there was clearly no bluffing her. You could flop quads and tell her you did. And she'd still call you to the river. Too bad I never flopped quads. And really too bad I never really had a hand I felt stongly enough about to go all in with early on. Oh well, next week I'll just have to hope for an early round knock out. Seeing as the rest of the table isn't strong enought to keep her in check.
Any other suggestions for me and the original poster. Because my mantra will always be, "sometimes skill takes a back seat to luck."
P.S.- Final hand vs. Her
I go all in preflop K/J suited (I'm BB and VERY short stacked)
She calls with K/2 off suit.
She wins with a pair of two's. See what I mean?
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
I had a simliar player like that at a tourney tonight. She played every and any hand. And when ever it was checked to her. She would bet to "Keep it Honest." What a crock of crap. My only problem was that I had nothing to go back at her with. And even when she was beat she'd still go to the river.
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OK, I don't want to start too big a thing here, but I have noticed the bad player who catches everything being talked about in a few posts. On this forum, in other forums, in person, over the phone, I even got a singing-telegram about this.
Why is this person almost always a woman?
Is it part of the nature of women? Is it part of the nature of men playing against women? I remember Doyle Brunson said that he will always avoid playing at a table with a woman, not because of game play, because he has been taught to respect women and he doesn't play poker respectfully.
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Toasty
I've called down someone more than once in a limit game with a pair of Ducks and more often than not MHIG Its quite satisfying, "You ain't got shit and i'm going to prove it :P" |
Check + call is a powerful and under-rated (by TAgs) weapon in limit for slowing down a maniac. Particularly heads-up with pots when you have some NL odds experience. It effectivly creates an all-in situtation if you know he'll bet with nothing. Caro cover this in a few of his essays and Skylansky talks about this sorta in his Tommy Angeloitis posts...
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Humphrind
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
I had a simliar player like that at a tourney tonight. She played every and any hand. And when ever it was checked to her. She would bet to "Keep it Honest." What a crock of crap. My only problem was that I had nothing to go back at her with. And even when she was beat she'd still go to the river.
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OK, I don't want to start too big a thing here, but I have noticed the bad player who catches everything being talked about in a few posts. On this forum, in other forums, in person, over the phone, I even got a singing-telegram about this.
Why is this person almost always a woman?
Is it part of the nature of women? Is it part of the nature of men playing against women? I remember Doyle Brunson said that he will always avoid playing at a table with a woman, not because of game play, because he has been taught to respect women and he doesn't play poker respectfully. |
You may be onto something here! Just like when I'm playing Craps. Anytime I bet against the shooter. If it's a man I get paid. If it's a woman I lose my shirt. And sure enough, when I bet with the female I get paid off.
The problem wasn't that she was a woman. It was just that the table I played on was scared because she won money the week before and I guess her mother won the tourney the week prior to that. It was my first time playing at this location and I guess I shoulda known better  Whatever.
God willing I'm gonna put the chick on lockdown next week courtesy of Mr. Check and Mr. Raise. And I'm gonna bribe Mr. Luck to find favor with me.
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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Just an addendum to last weeks post.
I played the same tourney this week and was able to sit to the woman's right. Different story this week. First off, I was getting great cards and was able to check raise her as I planned on doing. Secondly, she played her usual call/bet to the river with complete garbage hands. Hoping to chase something. I remember one hand she played 7/2 off with two Ace's on the board to the river.
Needless to say I knocked her out in short order. As well as soon as she saw I wasn't letting her buy the pots anymore she actually started to fold a little. Best moment was I rivered a 3 for a straight Ace to 5 to take her out.
Oh by the way. I won the whole shebang to boot! 
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leon_rts
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 127
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Vs that Kind of players i try to induce more bluffs, when i sense bluff and dont hit the flop i reraise them , or when i hit i just check and wait to be bluffed , same thing on the turn , then bet on the river , in No time you get their respect and will calm them down.
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