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crazyeddie
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03-12-2004, 06:19 PM
Post subject: Online Tells
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: VA
Posts: 97
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Ok, so most of us have read Mike Caro's book of poker tells. These have little or no use when playing online.
Here are a few things i've noticed about online action. Please feel free to add/edit:
The "Insta-check:" While it is true that sometimes a player will check-raise you or trap you by slow-playing a monster, there is almost always a momentary pause between the beginning of his turn and when he checks the bet. This is because it takes a moment to even realize that he hit his straight, flush, etc, and look at how many players are in the pot. For the most part, I have found that a check that occurs from early position (especially first to act) with zero delay is a true check, and not a trap. In other words, when a person immediately (zero delay) checks the bet after a scary looking flop, they may be on a draw but really didn't hit anything and do not hold the best hand at this point.
The "Auto-bet" or "Auto-raise:' Clearly, these can be used either for bluffing or for true betting. Here's the bottom line, though: With a scary flop like 2 suits or a pair, we can't tell much about a player who insta-raises. HOWEVER, if the turn brings a completion of the scare (aka the third of a suit or trips on the board) and they STILL insta-bet or insta-raise, I have found in my experience that they did NOT match up with the board. This is obvious when we think about it. Who auto-bets both trips and four of a kind, instantly, without giving any thought to getting more money in the pot?
"10 secs or less, then call:" Players who are faced with a large bet who hesitate and then call could just be smooth calling, but players who hesitate to the point that they have almost no time left are rarely calling with the nuts. More than likely, they are calling with a drawing hand, top pair with moderately high kicker, or a set with a straight on the board.
Of course there are exceptions to the above. Can anyone think of anything else?
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Ragingguitarist18
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 235
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i have found people who hesitate to call a bet are on a draw, or for some reason call because they have ace high, however I have come across people who hesitate and reraise me big, usually they have a pretty strong hand. However there has been many times where ive intentionally let the timer get down to about 5 when someone bets into me while im holding a monster. I'm sure theyre thinking im weak and will call a raise later in the hand even if they don't admit that they got fooled.
Also whenever you run into someone who bets with cents, like 1.59, most of the time its just a ploy, I haven't seen any consistent connection with that and the cards they hold.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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nice post, i'll keep that in mind for this weekend when i'm playing.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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In my experience hesitation means one of three things:
o Have a marginal decision to make (draw, top pair but not the best kicker, etc.)
o Busy doing something else. "Speed bump"
o A ploy by a clever player to represent a weaker hand.
Most of the time it's a marginal decision unless there is a trend of doing it.
This is why it's important to act fairly consistantly if there are hands which are still live, particulary when bluffing. Making a marginally wrong move fast often is better than making a marginally correct move slowly.
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AceKing
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 67
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I will use the slow raise approach myself from time to time, giving off the impression that I'm debating on calling, when in reality I have the best hand.
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crazyeddie
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: VA
Posts: 97
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What about when weaker players raise pre-flop, and then insta-all-in on flop, regardless of what comes up?
To me, it usually means pocket OVERpair, like QQ KK AA when the flop comes 9 high.
Thoughts?
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Ragingguitarist18
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 235
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usually seems to be the case, sometimes this happens with A-K with no help on the flop for some reason.
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philla
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12
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very inforative post i was wondering if any of you might share how you use the timer when betting to throw off other players. i try to be as inconsistent with how long it takes me to bet call or fold in all situations so as to give no readable paterns to opposing players.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by philla
very inforative post i was wondering if any of you might share how you use the timer when betting to throw off other players. i try to be as inconsistent with how long it takes me to bet call or fold in all situations so as to give no readable paterns to opposing players.
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or the otherside: be very consistent and take the same amount of time to fold/check/bet/raise.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Yeah, nice post. Here are my observations:
Long pause then check = slow play
Long, long pause then call = draw hand
You already mentioned both of those, but I just wanted to back you up on it.
You should write up an article and enter it in the article contest.
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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Again, I have to preface my post by saying that I play at Paradise Poker. They don't have a auto-bet in NL tables (I think Party Poker has the bet pot box to check) So If I get a quick checker I know they have clicked the check/fold box. I use that information all the time.
I have also flopped a full house, or a straight or flush and slow called on purpose. I think someone eluded to this earlier, but if I try to smooth call, I count to 10 before I hit the call button.
Overall, very informative post. I will use some of that information. But you can never account for those people who slow call or slow raise cause they walked away from the computer for a second (door, phone, bathroom)
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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I'll let ya in on a little secret that's helped me...
Mike Caro did some research on the subject and found that fast bets were less likely to be called, even when made by a computer!
Hence, I like to be consistantly fast with my bets, making a (semi)bluff/ or check decision on the fly so my bet carries more strength. However, if I'm on a run of cards the more aware players will pick up the fact I bet a little too much... My guess is that when it comes to betting where I might take it down uncontested, making the maginally wrong play fast is often better than thinking about it, then making the "correct" play. This is also why I review a lot of hand histories, so I am more likely to figure out the correct play without having to think for a while.
Another time this comes into play is when a player in the middle of a multi-pot times out or comes close. My guess is that a player remaining to act is now more likely to call/bet/raise than check/fold. They need their fix!
That being said, sometimes I'll stall because I really do have a close call to make or am faking weakness. Beware...
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Couldn't agree more, Fnord. I use this tactic as well and have also found it especially useful in the 2/4 Limit play. I love to use this when I hold a hand like AK, AQ or AJ and totally miss the flop. I have found that an almost "insta-bet" or "insta-raise" to a bet will help me take down a pot more times than not.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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athoughts
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
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i have found out that online play is retarded...
its lame, go play some live games.
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by athoughts
i have found out that online play is retarded...
its lame, go play some live games.
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Well, aren't you just the bright sun-beam of love.
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheNatural
Long pause then check = slow play
Long, long pause then call = draw hand
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Really? I've seen almost the exact opposite.
I've seen a lot of people take a long time to check when they're on a draw. They're trying to give the impression that they were thinking about betting but then decided to slowplay, so that people are hopefully scared to bet and they could see a free card.
For a draw (particularly a flush draw) that has a bet to them, if its small, I usually see a very quick call. Its cheap, and they want to hurry up and see the next card. There's no thought process or bluff involved. If the bet is big, then they're more likely to think about it and pot odds.
A ridiculously long pause and then a big bet usually seems to be a monster. They're trying to make it seem like they weren't sure if they should bet, and then decided to, when really they knew all along they were going to bet, they were just trying to convince you to call.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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some things to keep in mind:
- some people (like me  ) are still on dial-up - i have not idea what my response times look like to other people
- when i have a nut hand, i sometimes can't decide how much i want to bet, which makes it look like i'm pausing
- i make soooo many typos typing in my bet (i hate the slider bar), which makes me take longer
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i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fishstick
- i make soooo many typos typing in my bet (i hate the slider bar), which makes me take longer
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Haha, I've had that happen too. I try to keep all my bets at about the same time (unless I'm trying to give a false tell), but sometimes I start making a typo when I have a big hand, and it pisses me off. Particularly heads up. Then I think that they folded because I mistyped the bet, as its the first bet I've made the entire game that took that long to make.
If only I typed it right the first time, their stack would be mine!
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Grand_MasterB
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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while the insta-check, raise, call whatever buttons are a good place to start you have to be careful. there is always the possibility of someone trying to use the act-in-advance features but getting a delay bc of their computer, ISP, whatever. this can easily mislead someone. Also, if your site has the capabilities look at how many tables that person is playing at once. if he is playin a couple of tables you pretty much have to get rid of all timing tells.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Nice article regarding online tells from Card Player magazine (thanks to michael1123 for the link):
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...php?a_id=14185
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Rockymv
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,177
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A lot of people think about the slow play check the way you describe. Sometimes, if I'm in early position and have a draw, I'll take a long time and then check. Sometimes this scares people and they check through, giving me a free card.
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Staple Gun
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Gamblers Anonymous
Posts: 812
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Ok i was playing against a table once where it was obvious a few of them were trying to get info from the time it took people to bet, IE fast bet after a long check, I tried to vary the amount of time it took me to play and basically chose at random when to bet, i broke even but i think it probably helped on a couple hands. Since then I've always tried to vary the times a bit.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,778
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I try to vary the amount of time before moves too. Don't get me wrong, I don't take a super long time(too rude to other players). However, sometimes when I know my move I delay a second or two so that it is more like those times when I really do need an second or two to think.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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Since I've moved to limit, I'm finding a lot of value in the insta-raise tell. When you get insta-3-bet on a loose raise then you know you're probably going to have to play "fit or fold" on the flop with a strong need to fit and more often than not fold. Or in the case of hands like TT/JJ/AKo, capping might not be so hot of an idea...
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Staresy
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Following the Herd to 6-Max Land
Posts: 1,240
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I think a lot of this depends on the number and style of players that u are up against in the pot.
For example, if I were up against someone I know is betting/bluffing at a lot of pots and I flop the nuts or a very strong hand, I will deliberately take my time b4 making my decision. I want this maniac to think I am debating what to do. Usually a delay, followed by a mere call will almost certainly prompt a bigger raise on the turn because he wants to take you out.
However, if I am up against someone I know to be a lot tighter, I will bet quickly (whilst not instantaneously) on the flop where I have raised pre-flop regardless of whether I hit or not (I guess following from similar posts in this thread that I want people to think that I have got big cards). I want this person to think that this was not a decision that took a lot of thinking but wasn't a "I am going to bet regardless" type effort.
Also against a tighter/stronger player, sometimes I delay when a decision is put to me because I am merely analysing the hand and recalling this particular players previous play. It is simply I am trying to put him on a hand and then work out my outs, value of the draw etc. I am the first to admit that I used to be a lot more reckless and call too quickly and not take the time to (at least try!) and work out what I thought the other player(s) had.
Other times (as I think FishStick mentioned) the delay is also sometimes because I am trying to work out how much to bet.
I guess my whole point is u just use the time to work out (1) can I win the pot? (2) how much can I win from the pot?
These are just my thoughts, do with them as u wish!!
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elanto
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,117
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I think that in order to take full advantage of this you have to tell the difference between people who are in the game and are delaying the game on purpose or the people who are just watching t.v or browsing FTR  (me), so my advice is to b very careful when you are interpreting these tells, because one wrong read my cost you whole lot of your chip stack
-anto
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steviebrutal
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 96
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I think Fnord hit it on the head when he said to play consistantly. I, at least, see much better results that way.
I make a mental count of 2-3 seconds, and then I raise/call/check/fold. It can really throw players off - especially if youre a player prone to semi-bluff.
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gregor
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 95
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i don't read much into waiting periods....the games i am in i usually take the control of betting, get people loose, a rhythm of seeing 3-6x the BB with any solid playable hand.. so its natural for the ensuing slowplays to occur...
at the low limits, these jokers will fold 90% of the time, and check raise big the other 10% (drop it like its hot)....Its like the church collection basket......
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Keep your eyes open for fish, who have either been bad beated, or don't have much of their buyin left. They will often make a last gasp at making their money back. If i see a situation like this i'll call their all in (if it is only for say 10 dollars, in a 50 dollar buyin) with pocket pairs that are higher than tens usually. This sounds like a pretty specific situation, but lately (seeing as there are so many fish on noble poker) it has made me a lot of money.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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I've spent some time on this and I've found 1 system that is predictive 90% of the time, and I'll watch for it. And a couple that I give a little value to.
First, pauses or quick play don't mean anything in and of themselves. The one online tell that works for me consistently is the player that pauses a long time then makes an agressive move (bets or raises). I'll watch to see what he shows down. If he had the nuts or a monster then I note it. If he does it again, with a similarly strong hand, then I'll mark him for the tell. "Long pause then agression = strong hand".
The other tell I give credence is the BB preclicked Check/fold. If the marker hits the BB and immediately checks. He'll fold to any bet post-flop more often than not.
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aokrongly
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
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sorry about the double post, but there are other reasons for long pauses. In 2 or 3 table tournament play where the blind is based on time, I'll sometimes use clock time to make the blind increase before it gets to the small stack, or to buy myself time if there's just 1 player left at my short table before it's going to combine and fill up again. Also I'll play very quickly when I want the blind to get to me faster - Before in increases. It's a small thing, but sometimes it'll save me 75 chips (posting 100/50 blinds instead of 150/75 for instance). Or a bigger blind will push a small stack to go ai with any 2.
Most players hate this type of "slow playing", but they didn't pay my entry fee, so screw them. I find value in it in certain conditions.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Humphrind
Again, I have to preface my post by saying that I play at Paradise Poker. They don't have a auto-bet in NL tables (I think Party Poker has the bet pot box to check) So If I get a quick checker I know they have clicked the check/fold box. I use that information all the time.
I have also flopped a full house, or a straight or flush and slow called on purpose. I think someone eluded to this earlier, but if I try to smooth call, I count to 10 before I hit the call button.
Overall, very informative post. I will use some of that information. But you can never account for those people who slow call or slow raise cause they walked away from the computer for a second (door, phone, bathroom) |
thats the crappy part, if someone had a really good hand they wouldnt leave the computer.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I have a huge online tell. If I'm still in the hand, your most likely going to lose.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Staresy
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Following the Herd to 6-Max Land
Posts: 1,240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
The other tell I give credence is the BB preclicked Check/fold. If the marker hits the BB and immediately checks. He'll fold to any bet post-flop more often than not.
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Agree with u here in 99% of situations. The only time I would worry is if there is some scary-arse ragged flop, like 6 3 3 when his auto-fold could well mean that he is holding 6 3 and suddenly, he ain't folding this for love nor money
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JJ 713
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Washington State usA
Posts: 9
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Staresy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
The other tell I give credence is the BB preclicked Check/fold. If the marker hits the BB and immediately checks. He'll fold to any bet post-flop more often than not.
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Agree with u here in 99% of situations. The only time I would worry is if there is some scary-arse ragged flop, like 6 3 3 when his auto-fold could well mean that he is holding 6 3 and suddenly, he ain't folding this for love nor money |
all inners on per flop are 50% of the time bluffing - when they got a big stack or ar the short stack
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russhall
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ashland, OH
Posts: 13
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JJ 713
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Staresy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
The other tell I give credence is the BB preclicked Check/fold. If the marker hits the BB and immediately checks. He'll fold to any bet post-flop more often than not.
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Agree with u here in 99% of situations. The only time I would worry is if there is some scary-arse ragged flop, like 6 3 3 when his auto-fold could well mean that he is holding 6 3 and suddenly, he ain't folding this for love nor money |
all inners on per flop are 50% of the time bluffing - when they got a big stack or ar the short stack |
this is probably the most useful statistic i've seen in awhile... 50% of the time someone is bluffing. so, that all-in is either bluffing or not. amazing! 
either way, i don't think he's talking about all-in preflop. he's saying the BB auto-checks, then hits the ideal flop.
either way, i'd say to pay attention to this behavior on more than one instance. a lot of times i'll auto-check if the blinds are a healthy portion of my stack (tourney play) and i don't want to commit myself with a raise yet, or i'm on a drawing hand. but, in the early rounds, i definitely just use it because i don't want to pay attention and wouldn't mind folding my hand.
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