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Fnord

01-13-2009, 04:50 PM Post subject: Middle Pair, Big Pot

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

BB is loose, attacks weakness and we've already been at it a couple rounds. He also tends to slow play and make small value bets with his best hands and has made some very good laydowns with medium strength hands against big money. In a prior hand we went all-in pre-flop for ~$800 each with AKs vs 46o when he back raised me after a button limp. In another hand he failed to stack me KTo vs AK on a KT9 flop.

My image is tight and straight forward although I've shown a WTF hand or two at this point.

I open 87 diamonds from MPish for $40 and I'm around $1250 deep. Meh on the open, probably picking yet another round with BB. No one else at the table has a hand and they duck to my image. He calls (he's shown he'll do that with about any two cards. )

Heads up to the flop, around $80 in the pot after the drop.
Kh 7h 3s

BB checks, I bet $60.
Checking behind here would be a reaonable play. I had checked a couple goodish hands behind on the flop to get to showdown before, but decided to value bet here knowing that my bet would look a little dubious. I'm basically repping AA/Kx/air and he's seen me check behind top pair on a flop. That said, he's got total air here a very large % of the time and I can't give up the inititive against that sort of range. Nor can I give him too many free cards to value town me with or mix in bluffs to make my turn and river decisions difficult.

BB raises to $180
He'd been flatting a pretty wide range on flops looking for later weakness to take it away. Also he'd been trapping and making smaller bet/raises with his very strong hands. I felt this somewhat polarized his range with the really good stuff discounted. Also, with a wide pre-flop range the odds he has a better hand here or one that crushes me are small.

I pull back my $60 and replace it with four stacks of California Yellow as I verabally re-raise to $400. Biggest pot the table has seen in about two or three hours. I think he can laydown a King, probably won't push with one and I just don't think he's got two pair or better on this flop very often from two slightly better than random cards.

BB tanks. He counts the money behind (about $800.) I'm pretty sure he's working out some sort of odds. Flush draw is the only draw on the board, I hate to give people credit for flush draws heads-up to the flop, but this doesn't look like he thinks he's way ahead or behind. Nor do I think he's acting. Finally he gives a very genuine "screw it, I"m all-in."

I call.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how spewy is this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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01-13-2009, 10:08 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I wouldn't like to check the flop because we could be called by worse very easily. I fold to the raise on the flop because even spewdonks get cards sometimes. So let's say we discount sets because we expect him to slowplay sets even though it doesn't make complete sense since a flush draw is in his range so valuebetting sets should be a good move.

But his range is then comprised of:
Kx, 73, K7, K3, XhXh, 6h5h, 6h4h, 5h4h, Xh3h, air maybe the two pair hands are discounted although it would be advisable to raise 73 before you get fucked by the board (flush, K, two running paired cards own your soul)
I don't think he raises 7x, I think that's one of the hands he flats if he tends to flat

against this raising range we're either crushed or flipping (at best 65-35) unless he has a lot of air in his raising range
but that's unlikely because if he's going to be messing around big time in this pot he has some kind of a draw or piece to give him incentive

if you see him flat a lot of flops, what range does he raise? if you said it's polarized minus the really good stuff
so the top parts of his range are always ahead and you're turning your hand into a bluff
when you call you're pretty much bluff catching with a bluff
given stack sizes maybe it's OK

he put in $80, then $180 and has $800 left
2100 total pot, he's putting $600-ish more?

your equity has to be more than 28% or something
if he has a draw you're 45-65% to win so say you're 55%
but you're drawing super-thin when behind, maybe to 5 outs maybe to 2, so let's say 4 outs total for 16%

so if he has a draw like 50% of the time it's a call or if he has absolute air a lot
if he has a draw like 30% of the time it's a fold (.3 * .55 + .7 * .16)

do you see how bet/folding the flop makes your life easier later in the hand?

Miffed22001

01-13-2009, 11:16 PM

#3 (permalink)

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id call based on what youre saying after he c/r'ed as he had no plan after the c/r and didnt expect to get 3 balled by you.

Otherwise id probably make the flop play you did and maybe consider a fold to his shove without a solid read.
The live games i played have people on FDs too much here when c/r'ing.
You either knew when you 3 balled the flop you were calling a push or you didnt - board texture makes hands like Axs and 54s his only possible thinking hands except maybe a KJ/KQ type hand but i cant see him taking those to the felt with what you say

fwiw, the only reason i bet the flop here based on the positional open is to balance my FD c-bets and tp bets with blatent air. I wouldnt c-bet here to much as not a lot of villains hands improve on the turn and we are ahead or just plain behind a lot - but you already knew that.

pokerfan

01-14-2009, 12:37 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,736

if i want to gamble with him, i'd call this all day after 3 bet. Otherwise, i muck my hand, move on and look for another spot. In live games, i agree that many retarded loose players love to c/r & shove with flush draw.
Is this 5/10 game? If so, money behind is not that big IMO.

Fnord

01-14-2009, 09:17 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

do you see how bet/folding the flop makes your life easier later in the hand?

Won't this guy will chew me up if I run a lot of bet/folds against him. Save that stuff for the more passive sorts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

01-14-2009, 09:20 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

You either knew when you 3 balled the flop you were calling a push or you didnt.

Plan was to make a decision if he pushed. Probably fold. His body language + image sold me into the call and I wasn't happy about it when I made it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

01-14-2009, 09:25 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Is calling the $180 even an option?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

01-14-2009, 09:28 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

Is this 5/10 game? If so, money behind is not that big IMO.

It's serious for most of the player pool in this game. Also, not as many pots get super built pre-flop as the smaller games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerfan

01-16-2009, 01:42 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Location: NS, Canada

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

Is this 5/10 game? If so, money behind is not that big IMO.

It's serious for most of the player pool in this game. Also, not as many pots get super built pre-flop as the smaller games.

if you dont include any better pair hands in his range, then i think its definitely +EV to gamble with your money given that you probably have 45% equity and put one third of your stack in the pot already. Its soooo dependent on your solid read on this specific opponent in the heat of the moment that i cant really say how spewy it is.
Did you win this pot?

HaHa, sometimes we really make much more money per hand in crazy live games.

Fnord

01-17-2009, 01:34 AM

#10 (permalink)

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His Jh 4h didn't get there.
Send the pot dealer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

w272727

03-01-2009, 02:01 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 19

well played..but yea kindof spewy i would have just called his raise and looked to get it in on the turn if i hit.

floptquadswunc

03-01-2009, 03:44 PM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: nowhere and everywhere

Posts: 44

great read fnord. He didn't have a plan when you made it $400, or else he was giving you misinformation when he stopped to think about it. You said his remark "screw it, all in" was genuine.

I guess you have to trust your reads and go with it. What a call. I bet they talked about that hand for a bit afterwards. Man, does that give you a crazy image to the uninformed!

This is good, solid, poker (gambling) IMO.

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