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JoeHaw
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03-08-2009, 08:05 PM
Post subject: Loose Passive Calling-Stations limping in
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 186
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Alright, so if I'm playing with some friends in a live game at .035/.07 NL and I've become chip leader by playing VERY TaGGy. I don't think I bluffed once the whole game. Anyways, these are people who almost NEVER raise pre-flop unless they have JJ+/AK, however, they'll limp in/call a 4xBB blind with honestly ANY two cards, unless it's like 72o 83o 94o.
Anyways, afterbeing sucked out on a few times, I started thinking that if they were never going to raise pre-flop, maybe it would be worth limping in with hands like Q2 K7 56s etc just to see the flop and start sucking out on them since I had around 110 big blinds.
Is this thinking flawed? I started doing it a little bit and hit some big hands- I figured, if they're willing to let me see a flop with a garbage hand I might as well.
Is this flawed thinking? There's a lot I don't know about this game, so I figured maybe you guys would know if this is a -EV decision in the long run.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Raise them with impunity. Raise bigger if you needed to get the desired pot.
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JoeHaw
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 186
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Do you think I should increase my range, too? Or just bet even bigger when I have my standard tight range?
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I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
-Thomas Jefferson
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
-Thomas Edison
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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You should increase your RAISING range, but not your limping range. The reason is because trash hands do not become non-trash hands in multi-way pot. The only hands that really improve in a multiway pot are suited connectors, and to a lesser extent suited non-connectors and unsuited connectors. The latter hands don't generally improve enough to become really playable unless everyone really is seeing the flop, however.
On the other hand, if everyone is limping in with crap cards, then the odds are you will be ahead of many or all the other players when you see even a decent hand. Especially in position, hands like KJo and JTs can become good raising hands, essentially building the pot and increasing your expected payoffs when you flop the best hand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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With hands like:
AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, JJ, TT, etc.
Also ATs, KJs, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs
You're giving up a lot by just limping along as you'll often make a pair that does good if one or two pot sized bets go into the pot and fewer plawers see the flop. So you should be raising these hands to make more speculative holdings pay up front to see flops and have less money behind to get in good when they out-flop you or catch up.
I see a lot of players who just don't get this in my game.
People will sometimes comment that I don't get into tough spots and win more than my fair share of good pots. This is a big part of that.
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JoeHaw
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 186
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Yeah, that makes sense you guys thanks.
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I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
-Thomas Jefferson
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
-Thomas Edison
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Poker Orifice
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Flush
Join Date: May 2008
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 324
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ditto on what Fnord said here.
Also, if you can limp in behind with speculative hands, then do so (ie. SC's, low & med. pp, A-Xs). Don't go down the path they're on, your advantage doesn't come from playing junk hands in multi-way pots.
Raise it up higher than you normally would with your big hands. You really want to isolate only one or two players in a hand,.. so raise for value (experiment to see how high it is that you really need to raise).
GL & take their money.
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