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Thunder
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03-08-2009, 05:55 PM
Post subject: Live Rules Clarification Please
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Hi,
I played my 2nd live event this week at the Manchester G, and it was a ball but I have 2 questions about events that left me puzzled.
1) Two players were bantering on a flop:
Guy 1: if you bet I will put you all in.
Guy 2: You promise?
Guy 1: Yeah.
Guy 2 promptly shoves his stack in and the first guy says "maybe not then" and folded. Wasn't his statement of intent to go all in binding?
2) With the blinds at 800/1200, a guy in EP just said "2500". As I was in the BB with 19k, I elected to call and see a flop with J10s as I had folded most other times in the blinds and decided to take a stand with a hand that could take out a big pair - and I was prepared to move all in on any flush/straight board.
However, when I put my chips in, the dealer told me that it was 2500 *more*. Admittedly, I didn't look at the chips in the pot as I was watching other players and looking at my own cards. I just took his word that is was 2500 to go.
As I had elected to call, I was committed to forking out the extra chips - which was a sizeable amount and I hadn't shown much strength either in just flat calling. I missed the flop and made a decent sized c bet of 4k but had to fold to the all in shove and the hand cost me a sizeable portion of my chips, leaving me in tilt town.
Had I known it was a 3x raise I would either have folded pre or moved all in.
What is the ruling here? "2500" alone is misleading to me. Surely he had to say "raise 2500" or just "3600" - both of which indicate the actual amount needed to call?
Thx
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Hand 1: Guy 1's promise is not binding.
Hand 2: Wait for him to put in the chips is the simple answer. If he said "2500", put in 2500 then stopped, it's a string bet. Fail that you should be able to fold because his action was not clear. Dealer should issue a warning to be clear about his bets in the future.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand 1: Guy 1's promise is not binding.
Hand 2: Wait for him to put in the chips is the simple answer. If he said "2500", put in 2500 then stopped, it's a string bet. Fail that you should be able to fold because his action was not clear. Dealer should issue a warning to be clear about his bets in the future.
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Hand 1-- of course the promise is non-binding. Otherwise it would constitute collusion, which is illegal at the poker table.
With respect to Hand 2, I am very big on the idea that people need to bet in a non-misleading way. If someone calls out "2500", you should ask-- "are you raising to 2500 or raising 2500 more?". Smoke him out-- for all you know, the guy may be deliberately being vague about his action to induce a caller.
Since we are on this subject, one thing that a lot of players do that I think is really sleazy is evading the forward motion rule (which requires that any bet not announced be made with one forward motion of one's hands) by holding a huge stack of chips out over the table, letting the amount drop that would call the bet, and then letting more chips drop to raise. To me, that's the same as a string bet, but casinos consider that one forward motion and allow it. It allows a player to observe reactions around the table and quickly decide not to drop down any more chips.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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At our casino they call that a string bet.
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2ndline.4thstreet
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 120
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
At our casino they call that a string bet.
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Agreed. Hand 1 - not binding.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx for the info.
I thought hand 1 would be binding as the guy issued a statement of intent and even reiterated it. Funnily enough, I spoke to the cardroom manager last night and he said had he been aware of it, he would have held the guy to his word of going all in for the same reasons.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Thx for the info.
I thought hand 1 would be binding as the guy issued a statement of intent and even reiterated it. Funnily enough, I spoke to the cardroom manager last night and he said had he been aware of it, he would have held the guy to his word of going all in for the same reasons.
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Well, you are always within your rights to call for a floorman if you think someone is breaking a rule. The other players won't like you very much, but sometimes the floorman will back you up.
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