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digitaldoc

05-13-2005, 09:40 PM Post subject: Live Casino Play Question

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 135

I was playing a 2 table turbo at a live card room here in Tampa florida today when the following situation occured.

We were playing for the first 40 minutes using a green deck which was prepared before I took my seat. I believe one person was sitting at the table waiting for it to get going while the cards were prepaired. In fact he was having a conversation with the dealer while we arrived. (Evidently he knows this dealer on a friendship level outside the card room.)

At the forty minute mark we race off the red chips and switch decks. At which time it is discovered that one card from the original deck was somehow put in with the second deck that was not in play. When the original deck was counted, there was only 51 cards in play for the first two blinds. As it turns out, it was the King of dimonds and it was the extra card in the second deck.

Does anyone know what would happen in other casinos if they found a deck short during MTT play?

Unfortunately for our tournament they did nothing but pull the deck from the table and put a new one on it. We had 3-4 people very upset, citing they were making plays based upon the assumption the deck was full and not light. Two particular hands came to mind were an AK verses 77 and AK vs AQ. Both times the AK lost.

Just curious...it was only a $45 turbo and not a big deal to me, but I am kinda curious now how the odds are effected by missing one card. Not to mention that now the two tables are not on equal terms.

IMO: I think they should have either stopped the two table there and offered everyone their money back or restarted the turbo again. Just a little steamed I guess. BTW I was about even at the time of discovery.

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hagakure

05-14-2005, 01:27 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 215

Personally I think they should have restarted the tournament making everyone back where they were when it started. I would have been pissed too. The dealer should have caught that WAY before it was finally found.

Shark Bait

05-14-2005, 04:13 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

It's the dealers responsibility to make sure there are 52 cards in the deck. Where ever I go when a new dealer sits down he counts the cards to make sure there are 52. I've never seen a problem like this before though. I wouldn't expect them to do anything about it. Playing the tournement over isn't really an option. Offering people their buy-in back (and making them leave the tournement) would be a decent solution.

Wet_DreaMer

05-14-2005, 07:21 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: Viridian City!

Posts: 190

Thats ridiculous.

The dealer should be fired, and/or killed.

Its the casinos problem and fault, they should have to play the tournament out, and award the prizes, then give everyones money back as well.

What casino was this in?

Xianti

05-14-2005, 07:23 AM

#5 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: facebook.com/xianti

Posts: 5,289

This is more a question about casino policy than tourney strategy.

{Moved from Tournament Tactics}

lonnie

05-15-2005, 11:59 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

I haven't heard of this in a tournament setting yet. It did happen to another dealer where I work in a cash game. A card was under the rail, and she didn't count the deck down while on the game. The next dealer caught the mistake.

Obviously nothing was done about it. I don't even know what the missing card was. The dealer was reprimanded pretty severely - this is probably the absolute worst mistake that can be made.

There's nothing to be done in this situation but make the deck right and continue play. There was a king missing, and it was screwing up the outs for people - but everyone was still playing with the same deck. They each had a equal chance of being the ones screwed by the missing K.

Too much action had taken place in the tourney and I don't think the cardroom would ever just pay everyone's money back.

I'm sure everyone has had this happen in a home game before. Go to put the cards back in the box - there's a card still in there. Maybe a card falls on the floor. There's nothing you can do about it at that point. Same holds true in the card room.

Not saying it's good or right, and yes that dealer sucks for screwing that up.

Don't forget when you are playing at a table - watch to see if the dealer counts the deck down. If they don't do it in the first 5 hands - ask them to change the deck. This will force the dealer to bring a new deck out and you can verify for yourself that all the cards are there. Keep your eyes on the cards when a new deck is brought in. I've noticed many times when I bring a new setup onto a game and am checking the cards - there are always one or two players checking it along with me.

I'm sure most players keep an eye on betting action. When a bet is short or high by a chip or two, usually two players tell the offending player before I can get the words out. Card security is no different. It's not the player's responsibility, but it is in the players' best interest to PAY ATTENTION.

digitaldoc

05-16-2005, 02:57 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 135

I guess I'll chaulk this one up to experience. Just sorta think it sucks all around. If I don't get the opportunity to whatch the deck counted down, I will ask to have it done. (Especially at this card room!) And cite the past experience as a reason.

While it is the dealers responsibility to check the deck, it is my responsibility to feel certain the deck is square.

If people weren't involved....I would have mastered poker along time ago! - Play the Game!

lonnie

05-16-2005, 03:40 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

If I don't get the opportunity to whatch the deck counted down, I will ask to have it done. (Especially at this card room!) And cite the past experience as a reason.

Right on - you gotta look out for yourself.

Don't ask for a countdown. This is not a typical request from a player, and I'm not even sure you can request that.

Instead, ask the dealer for a new deck. This way you know for sure the deck is good, and asking for a new deck is perfectly within your rights as a player. Not sure if "deck countdown" is.

mgobluefb

05-16-2005, 09:56 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagakure

I disagree.

This has happened before in our home games, and each time we have given money back. However, we have now made new rules - we will count the deck before each game, but NO MONEY will be refunded EVER if a short deck is found.

There is just no way to do it any other way. For example, someone just lost a lot of money in a home ring game. He purposefully throws a card on the floor, picks it up, shows everyone, and announces that everyone receive their money back. This could even happen in casinos as well. There is just no way to enforce refunds in this situation.

The only solution is to just switch decks and keep playing. No refunds.

hagakure

05-18-2005, 04:21 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 215

Counting the deck before each game is great...but finding a short deck before the game doesn't mean anything except you need a new deck. The fact that the deck is short at that point hasn't caused any trouble.

The example about a guy throwing a card on the floor isn't anything close to the original problem. It could happen in a casino, yes, then the guy would either feel like a fool from all the strange looks he gets or he will be asked to leave for acting like an asshat. People drop/show cards all the time...it's the players responsibility to protect their cards. Anytime one is shown, intentionally or not, it isn't the casino's problem.

digitaldoc

05-18-2005, 04:38 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 135

Just a quick follow up.

Went back to the same card room yesterday. Played in a 120 person MTT. I made sure I was at the table before the cards were checked. There was a few other players there and I mentioned the incident that occured before and that was why I was there. All of them were surprised by the incident occuring.

Then the dealer piped in with "It happens here maybe about once a day."
I nearly fell of my chair. He went on to explain that the card room routinely pulls the decks out of the packaging and strips the extra cards. The chip racks have a narrow card seperator and when the two decks placed in the rack, one or two cards occassionally get put in with the wrong deck. Most dealers catch the error when they fan the cards but it sometimes slips through when a dealer is talking with a player.

Needless to say, I've definately feel the need to watch the dealer go through their inspection of the cards so I feel 100% certain we're starting with a full deck.

If people weren't involved....I would have mastered poker along time ago! - Play the Game!

mgobluefb

05-18-2005, 09:36 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagakure

The example about a guy throwing a card on the floor isn't anything close to the original problem. It could happen in a casino, yes, then the guy would either feel like a fool from all the strange looks he gets or he will be asked to leave for acting like an asshat. People drop/show cards all the time...it's the players responsibility to protect their cards. Anytime one is shown, intentionally or not, it isn't the casino's problem.

The original problem was "should money be refunded after a card is found missing from the deck?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitaldoc

IMO: I think they should have either stopped the two table there and offered everyone their money back or restarted the turbo again. Just a little steamed I guess. BTW I was about even at the time of discovery.

I argued that no, money should not be refunded in this situation. I supported my argument by saying that, if money WAS to be refunded in this situation, an unhappy player could simply hide/destroy/evaporate one of the cards if he/she wanted his/her money back. It's an extreme example, but, under this policy, after counting the deck and seeing a card missing, the dealer would give everyone their money back. Obviously this is not even close to practical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagakure

The example about a guy throwing a card on the floor isn't anything close to the original problem.

Yes, that was EXACTLY the original problem.

hagakure

05-19-2005, 01:48 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 215

Oh ok...and it's highly possible for a player to hide/destroy/evaporate one of the cards in a casino game. They don't have cameras anywhere and players could easily get a way with it. Im sure you are just the first to think about it.

Humphrind

05-19-2005, 01:56 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

I've played tournaments at a casino where they have a card shuffler in the table that they use to shuffle after every hand, and one where the dealer shuffles.

When the dealer shuffles he counts the cards at the start of the tournament, and after every deck change.

With the auto-shuffler, it tells you if the deck is even 1 card light. Big error message and the dealer takes the deck out, puts it in order to confirm and switches decks right there.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

ChezJ

06-14-2005, 03:18 PM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

i was playing at the monte carlo in las vegas and they had the auto shufflers in the table. one time, the deck came up short even though there was no warning light. i don't remember how the dealer caught it but fortunately this was before the cards were dealt. she remarked at how the machine should have put up a warning but it did not. apparently even machines make mistakes.

requesting a deck change seems like the best thing to do. i have seen guys do this and everyone always wonders why. i always assumed it was because the requestor was superstitious and wanted to "change his luck" even though the new deck should provide the same exact statistical probabilities as the old one. but this is not true if the old deck is missing a card or, now that i think about it, somehow marked. so a deck change definitely seems like a reasonable thing to request, as long as it is not too disruptive.

ChezJ

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