live 1/2 at local dogtrack

**acg123** · 03-05-2012 08:32 PM

pulled a allniter as table was seemingly loose and profitable with some deep stacks avg was 200 bbs
so far the game was decent started playing at 7pm and it was about 4am when this situation came up. it was not uncommon to open to $15 and get 4 callers cuz of stack sizes.
i am in HJ with 220bbs roughly, folds to me and i open to $15 with TsTc and get calls all the way to BB who completes. also CO is a 5/10 reg who is pretty aggro IP and reads somewhat well vs. typical player, BTN is older white lady who plays the nuts only and SB and BB are passives who have been running pretty well. all have about 200 BBs other than CO who has around 300-325 at start of hand. Flop come Js 3s Td , checks to me and i bet $20 (pot is $60 on flop) and CO raises to $75 fairly quickly. it folds back around to me and the pot is $155 with my stack at about $400. at the time i knew if i re-raise i would blow him off his hand and he raises HEAVILY with JJ preflop, so i thought he has 33 or a FD. since hes aggro i assumed by his physical tells that he had a draw as he was fairly nervous when he made the raise, so i decide to flat and re-evaluate on the turn. sure as shit the flush hits, board is now Js 3s Td Ks. with the pot at $210, i check and he snap shoves. he has me covered and i have roughly $325 left. i watch him for about 20 secs and he looks scared shitless, what i wanted to see is if he had the nuts or if my Ts was live, i quickly determine im not getting the right price and show him what i folded as soon as he saw my cards he sighd in relief and showed me the 78 of spades. i guess i want to know what my raise size should be on flop? whats our plan when it bricks on turn? i have no history in that situation.

**RockyMoose** · 03-06-2012 04:15 AM

Bet more on the flop. 3/4 pot or more. Jam his raise. You have a very strong hand and you deserve a big pot.

As played hypothetically, if it had bricked on the turn you need to bet enough to deny proper odds on the flush draw.

**StarGrinder** · 03-06-2012 07:09 PM

In a live game I'd be looking to get the money in asap and these guys will call anything. Your bet gives him 4 to 1 pot odds on the flop call, more than enough to chase a flush. Bet the pot, he'll call here.

**drmcboy** · 03-06-2012 07:36 PM

itsacoolwalloftextbro but ididn'treadit

**acg123** · 03-06-2012 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by RockyMoose

Bet more on the flop. 3/4 pot or more. Jam his raise. You have a very strong hand and you deserve a big pot.

As played hypothetically, if it had bricked on the turn you need to bet enough to deny proper odds on the flush draw.

i thought of that, but he is a competent player and wont raise if i pot it, just call and he will pot turn when he hits if not shove, so i bet small in hopes of being raised, then i was going to jam over his raise. i guess i got exactly what i wanted but couldnt pull the trigger to jam it as he was running fairly well, 3 or 4 chased flushes he made so far in the past 4 hours or so. yea i def. should of jammed i think he would of folded and i could of picked up the pot right there which would of been nice.

**Fnord** · 03-08-2012 10:37 PM

Shove flop.

Fold Turn.

**acg123** · 03-09-2012 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Shove flop.

Fold Turn.

Exactly. next time I need to not let him get there without paying.

**Fnord** · 03-15-2012 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by acg123

Exactly. next time I need to not let him get there without paying.

It's not so much about making him pay as it is about the value of playing more streets vs getting the money in pretty darn good on the current street.

**acg123** · 03-21-2012 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's not so much about making him pay as it is about the value of playing more streets vs getting the money in pretty darn good on the current street.

Can u explain this a little more? Im not quite sure I know exactly what u mean.

**Fnord** · 03-22-2012 01:23 AM

When considering spots where you can get all the money in without making a really silly over-bet you should consider the value in having money behind or not for the next street.

Here you're out of position and will have to guess at a lot of turn cards. I would just get the money in because I think he gets the best of it by playing the turn with money behind.

**acg123** · 03-22-2012 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

When considering spots where you can get all the money in without making a really silly over-bet you should consider the value in having money behind or not for the next street.

Here you're out of position and will have to guess at a lot of turn cards. I would just get the money in because I think he gets the best of it by playing the turn with money behind.

Thats a very good point, and something ive never really considered. I appreciate you taking the time to explain that. I agree totally that he definetly benefits by seeing a turn card with money behind (and alot at that) considering stack sizes. So was my thinking process flawed then? In the moment I felt like flatting was best play to use his aggresion against him and by not 3bing him on flop it makes my hand look somewhat weakish on the turn and I think he fires alot of turns that brick his range. Should I be thinking along the lines that you explained here more often than not? Or was that just about the worst turn card I could of seen?

**d0zer** · 03-22-2012 08:48 PM

on drawy boards like this, there's a lot of bad turn cards that can cause villain to shutdown with the weaker part of their flop stackoff range, there's a lot of draws that'll pay off now (but maybe not later), and there's enough combos of hands we can get value from so just keep trying to get the money in the middle until it is.

$20 into $60 with stacks as deep as they are is not trying hard enough.

**acg123** · 03-23-2012 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by d0zer

on drawy boards like this, there's a lot of bad turn cards that can cause villain to shutdown with the weaker part of their flop stackoff range, there's a lot of draws that'll pay off now (but maybe not later), and there's enough combos of hands we can get value from so just keep trying to get the money in the middle until it is.

$20 into $60 with stacks as deep as they are is not trying hard enough.

Ok, so I should get the money in when his equity is higher as hes more likely to stack off now vs. on the turn when his equity drops substsntially? If action follows as it did just different numbers, and I lead for 50 he pots it to 120, brings pot to 240, my play iswhat?? Ship it? I have 250 behind after he makes it 120. Is that about right??

**rpm** · 03-24-2012 05:53 AM

bet more on the flop because they wall call with any pair T+ and any 4+ out draw. stacks are deep and we are multiway with the effective nuts. shove over any flop raise because we are in good shape against their calling ranges and most raising ranges on this flop won't fold. don't fold your hand face up because that is giving your opponents free information and they wont always return the favour as this guy did.

03-05-2012 08:32 PM #1
acg123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2011 Posts 190	live 1/2 at local dogtrack pulled a allniter as table was seemingly loose and profitable with some deep stacks avg was 200 bbs so far the game was decent started playing at 7pm and it was about 4am when this situation came up. it was not uncommon to open to $15 and get 4 callers cuz of stack sizes. i am in HJ with 220bbs roughly, folds to me and i open to $15 with TsTc and get calls all the way to BB who completes. also CO is a 5/10 reg who is pretty aggro IP and reads somewhat well vs. typical player, BTN is older white lady who plays the nuts only and SB and BB are passives who have been running pretty well. all have about 200 BBs other than CO who has around 300-325 at start of hand. Flop come Js 3s Td , checks to me and i bet $20 (pot is $60 on flop) and CO raises to $75 fairly quickly. it folds back around to me and the pot is $155 with my stack at about $400. at the time i knew if i re-raise i would blow him off his hand and he raises HEAVILY with JJ preflop, so i thought he has 33 or a FD. since hes aggro i assumed by his physical tells that he had a draw as he was fairly nervous when he made the raise, so i decide to flat and re-evaluate on the turn. sure as shit the flush hits, board is now Js 3s Td Ks. with the pot at $210, i check and he snap shoves. he has me covered and i have roughly $325 left. i watch him for about 20 secs and he looks scared shitless, what i wanted to see is if he had the nuts or if my Ts was live, i quickly determine im not getting the right price and show him what i folded as soon as he saw my cards he sighd in relief and showed me the 78 of spades. i guess i want to know what my raise size should be on flop? whats our plan when it bricks on turn? i have no history in that situation.

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03-06-2012 04:15 AM #2
RockyMoose View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2008 Posts 206	Bet more on the flop. 3/4 pot or more. Jam his raise. You have a very strong hand and you deserve a big pot. As played hypothetically, if it had bricked on the turn you need to bet enough to deny proper odds on the flush draw.

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03-06-2012 07:09 PM #3
StarGrinder View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2010 Posts 800	In a live game I'd be looking to get the money in asap and these guys will call anything. Your bet gives him 4 to 1 pot odds on the flop call, more than enough to chase a flush. Bet the pot, he'll call here.

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03-06-2012 07:36 PM #4
drmcboy View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message DrButtInski Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 10,684	itsacoolwalloftextbro but ididn'treadit

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03-06-2012 07:42 PM #5
acg123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2011 Posts 190	Originally Posted by RockyMoose Bet more on the flop. 3/4 pot or more. Jam his raise. You have a very strong hand and you deserve a big pot. As played hypothetically, if it had bricked on the turn you need to bet enough to deny proper odds on the flush draw. i thought of that, but he is a competent player and wont raise if i pot it, just call and he will pot turn when he hits if not shove, so i bet small in hopes of being raised, then i was going to jam over his raise. i guess i got exactly what i wanted but couldnt pull the trigger to jam it as he was running fairly well, 3 or 4 chased flushes he made so far in the past 4 hours or so. yea i def. should of jammed i think he would of folded and i could of picked up the pot right there which would of been nice.

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03-08-2012 10:37 PM #6
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Shove flop. Fold Turn.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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03-09-2012 04:31 PM #7
acg123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2011 Posts 190	Originally Posted by Fnord Shove flop. Fold Turn. Exactly. next time I need to not let him get there without paying.

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03-15-2012 08:35 PM #8
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Originally Posted by acg123 Exactly. next time I need to not let him get there without paying. It's not so much about making him pay as it is about the value of playing more streets vs getting the money in pretty darn good on the current street.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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03-21-2012 11:59 PM #9
acg123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2011 Posts 190	Originally Posted by Fnord It's not so much about making him pay as it is about the value of playing more streets vs getting the money in pretty darn good on the current street. Can u explain this a little more? Im not quite sure I know exactly what u mean.

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03-22-2012 01:23 AM #10
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	When considering spots where you can get all the money in without making a really silly over-bet you should consider the value in having money behind or not for the next street. Here you're out of position and will have to guess at a lot of turn cards. I would just get the money in because I think he gets the best of it by playing the turn with money behind.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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03-22-2012 08:08 PM #11
acg123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2011 Posts 190	Originally Posted by Fnord When considering spots where you can get all the money in without making a really silly over-bet you should consider the value in having money behind or not for the next street. Here you're out of position and will have to guess at a lot of turn cards. I would just get the money in because I think he gets the best of it by playing the turn with money behind. Thats a very good point, and something ive never really considered. I appreciate you taking the time to explain that. I agree totally that he definetly benefits by seeing a turn card with money behind (and alot at that) considering stack sizes. So was my thinking process flawed then? In the moment I felt like flatting was best play to use his aggresion against him and by not 3bing him on flop it makes my hand look somewhat weakish on the turn and I think he fires alot of turns that brick his range. Should I be thinking along the lines that you explained here more often than not? Or was that just about the worst turn card I could of seen?

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03-22-2012 08:48 PM #12
d0zer View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2007 Posts 4,277	on drawy boards like this, there's a lot of bad turn cards that can cause villain to shutdown with the weaker part of their flop stackoff range, there's a lot of draws that'll pay off now (but maybe not later), and there's enough combos of hands we can get value from so just keep trying to get the money in the middle until it is. $20 into $60 with stacks as deep as they are is not trying hard enough.

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03-23-2012 12:01 AM #13
acg123 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2011 Posts 190	Originally Posted by d0zer on drawy boards like this, there's a lot of bad turn cards that can cause villain to shutdown with the weaker part of their flop stackoff range, there's a lot of draws that'll pay off now (but maybe not later), and there's enough combos of hands we can get value from so just keep trying to get the money in the middle until it is. $20 into $60 with stacks as deep as they are is not trying hard enough. Ok, so I should get the money in when his equity is higher as hes more likely to stack off now vs. on the turn when his equity drops substsntially? If action follows as it did just different numbers, and I lead for 50 he pots it to 120, brings pot to 240, my play iswhat?? Ship it? I have 250 behind after he makes it 120. Is that about right??

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03-24-2012 05:53 AM #14
rpm View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2009 Posts 2,858 Location maaaaaaaaaaate	bet more on the flop because they wall call with any pair T+ and any 4+ out draw. stacks are deep and we are multiway with the effective nuts. shove over any flop raise because we are in good shape against their calling ranges and most raising ranges on this flop won't fold. don't fold your hand face up because that is giving your opponents free information and they wont always return the favour as this guy did.

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