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pokerfan
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08-01-2009, 11:00 PM
Post subject: Lay down KK facing 5 bet shove?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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10-handed 1/2 NL games. An old lady with 100BB deep open raised $13 from UTG1, a semi-tight guy(live standard) with $400 behind reraised to $37 from MP, hero got dealt two Kings in SB with $310 behind and 4 bet to $100. Ah Ha,old lady folded but the semi-tight guy shoved his remaining stack, Hero?
i'm pretty sure that ppl in live games only 5 bet/shove with KK+ this deep. Do you guys even think about folding KK 150 BB deep in this situation?
YUCK!!!!!!!!
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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sometimes people do weird inexplicable shit so I think u just gotta call. i'm not prepared to nail someone down to one specific hand based on a read of "live standard"
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I flat pre-flop and as played fold to the shove if I think MP is really passive or on scared money. I would flat Aces here too.
I don't hate going broke here. One of those in the moment things. How did he go all-in? Any hollywood? Legit thinking about it? Did he shove his chips in the pot or just say "all-in"?
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I flat pre-flop and as played fold to the shove if I think MP is really passive or on scared money. I would flat Aces here too.
I don't hate going broke here. One of those in the moment things. How did he go all-in? Any hollywood? Legit thinking about it? Did he shove his chips in the pot or just say "all-in"?
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he shoved his whole stack towards the center and announced all-in without saying any BS.Another semi-passive player did the same thing,flipped AA but lost to my set Kings two days ago.
Man, This is an obvious AA bad feeling,right?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Meh, this is why I like a flat here with my entire range of AA/KK LoL.
Otherwise hands like AK/QQ/JJ have a good chance to get away. If you see a flop they'll go crazy and/or pot commit themselves.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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don't 4bet if ur even gunna think about folding to a 5b shove
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
don't 4bet if ur even gunna think about folding to a 5b shove
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I'm just venting here  . Obviously my KK bumped into AA once again.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Like I said, I don't think 4-betting in these spots is optimal minus reads (someone rich/carefree/stupid enough to get it in with Jacks, etc.)
A far wider range is giving action if you let them retain initiative. I've seen KK hit an Axx board and just go all-in because they don't want to fold and can't figure out how to play it. AK spewing all over rag boards is really standard.
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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AK spewing all over rag boards is standard on the internets too.
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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I tend to play more straightforward with KK OOP against passive live players especially when I have more than 150BB and the pot is likely multiway. Of course we could flat here for deception value but I think it's more profitable vs postflop aggressive ppl and less risky with AA.
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mxiu
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 982
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i flat pre here a lot... lose too much post-flop value by 4-betting. his cbet has to be pretty big and you stack QQ a lot more often.. disaster if QQ gets away pre
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Looming
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10
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It really depends what position I'm in and who's at my table, how people are feeling at my table etc...
But I would most often lay down KK against a 5 bet shove by a passive player. It's hard to say, it's really situational.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
I tend to play more straightforward with KK OOP against passive live players especially when I have more than 150BB and the pot is likely multiway. Of course we could flat here for deception value but I think it's more profitable vs postflop aggressive ppl and less risky with AA.
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Flatting is sooo much better than re-raising. You're just trying to minimize your chances of losing a pot at the expense of EV. I do that sometimes too. Some guys just won't pay you off stupid as consistantly as they will spew it off or pot-fuck themselves.
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ehkay47
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 11
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Yeah the flat seems really good now that I've read this entire thread.
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Extremophile
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Stackton
Posts: 451
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
pot-fuck themselves
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LOL. can wee add this up in the dictionary?
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Carl Trooper
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10
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yeh.. why would u 5 bet just to fold?
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