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Gshark
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02-20-2009, 04:22 PM
Post subject: KK UTG - Your thoughts are appreciated
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 65
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Live game. Been playing for a couple of hours. My image is pretty TAGish. A couple of real donkeys at the table, but the villain here only goes to showdown with something strong.
My chip stack is second only to the villains. Cash game. $1/2 NL
I get KcKs and I'm UTG. I raise to $8. 1 fold, villain calls, another fold, 1 call, button and SB fold, and the BB calls.
Flop: Ac Kh As (pot =$33)
BB checks, I bet $18, villain min raises to $36, 2 folds, I call $18
Turn: 2d (pot=$105)
I bet $50, he raises me $50, I call again.
River: 4d (pot=$205)
I bet $100, he raises to $240 which would put me all in, I call.
This pot got pretty large fairly quickly. I thought for a second that he might have had AK, but since he usually raises any preflop bets with big slick I'm thinking he has AQ or AJ. My range does include A9 and AT so I figure that's what he's putting me on.
Thoughts?
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lockpull
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: OVERLAND PARK, KS
Posts: 303
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What has the villian done against your raises so far and with what kind of hands?
AK,AA (along with a very unlikley A2s,A4s) might be possible, but with 198 already invested into a pot that has about 540 in it already with only about 120 (?) or so to call, I would call as there are only 4 hands that beat me. A flop reraise might have given you a little more info on where you/he was at in the hand and saved a difficult decision on the river. Also with the bet, calls you were doing he could have had you on a weak ace.
I would also like anyone else that thinks my thinking is way off here to please let me know.
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naturalassassin
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 59
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I always raise 2.5-5bb in live game. If I just sat down or think I'm likely to get called by one or more opponents I'll raise more in an effort to scare. If I just saw someone make a big preflop raise and I just sat down I'll make the same preflop raise.
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Don't knock on deaths door... ring the bell and run! Death hates that LOL.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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How deep is the money and is he bluffing here often, then following up his flop bluff with more aggression?
I would put him on trips and re-raise because so few live players are ever getting away from the hand. I'd probably re-raise big and make it look bluffy, although that's harder on a rainbow board. From there it's value town and hope he doesn't hit his kicker. The nice part about getting it in early this deep is that it puts less value in figuring out if he hits his kicker later in the hand because you'll probably commit by the turn. Figure $100 on the flop and the rest in on the turn.
If you flat the flop, your turn lead is pretty WTF. What are you trying to represent there? It looks like some sort of pot control line in a spot where you probably shouldn't be looking to get really cute.
For a live game AK is CERTAINLY in his range. Live players in my game limp and generally play it like pussies because many are not comfortable flipping for buy-ins and vastly under-value taking down a pot pre-flop. All the more reason their 3-bet range is sooooo LoL. That said, I'm paying off the case King with an Ace here every time and twice on friday because I run like shit on Friday.
The UTG open for a raise is whatever. Sometimes I raise there, sometimes I limp. It's a game flow and table dynamic thing.
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Gshark
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 65
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I really didn't think he had AK here. Last time he showed it he had reraised on every street with a very drawy board. He's been very aggressive with top pair and with his minimum raises I put him on a weak A.
As for what I was trying to represent on the flop - I was trying to disguise my hand while pumping the pot up a bit. Part of me was hoping to induce a spazz from him that I could have capitalized on. Would you have bet the pot, or checked? I don't like checking here because there are too many draws possible, and an overbet would might scare him out of the pot.
I don't think he's bluffing here, but I don't see him with the nuts either.
Turns out my read wasn't spot on. He had pocket 4s. Really strange plays by him.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gshark
He had pocket 4s.
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Standard.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,603
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how much did he tilt after you slow rolled him?
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Gshark
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 65
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I don't know if I would say that I slow rolled him...
He definitely wasn't in the best mood after this though. He lost his last $100 to the guy to my right about 15-30 min later. Poker sucks sometimes lol.
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frreshprince
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 100
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I enjoy your play with the hand, and you ended up milking him until you doubled up so i can't make fun of your game there.
The one thing i like to do with a hand like this, is i love the c-bet on the flop for 18$ and i love the just think for a while and call on the flop.
Then when the turn hits I probably would've checked to appear weak now to really mix him up, like you were on some sort of weird draw or just have a king and want to slow down betting. This would almost always induce a big bet and then i'd come over the top, which if he had an A would pay off. but in this case wouldn't have.
But other than all that you played the hand pretty much perfectly, 44 is the last thing i would've put him on with those aggressive moves. he must have alota money in the bank to throw it around like that lol.
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And i yelled to the cabby YO HOLMES SMELL YA LATER
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Gshark
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 65
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by frreshprince
he must have alota money in the bank to throw it around like that lol.
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Yeah... he did. At least I got a nice piece of it though 
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How deep is the money and is he bluffing here often, then following up his flop bluff with more aggression?
I would put him on trips and re-raise because so few live players are ever getting away from the hand. I'd probably re-raise big and make it look bluffy, although that's harder on a rainbow board. From there it's value town and hope he doesn't hit his kicker. The nice part about getting it in early this deep is that it puts less value in figuring out if he hits his kicker later in the hand because you'll probably commit by the turn. Figure $100 on the flop and the rest in on the turn.
If you flat the flop, your turn lead is pretty WTF. What are you trying to represent there? It looks like some sort of pot control line in a spot where you probably shouldn't be looking to get really cute.
For a live game AK is CERTAINLY in his range. Live players in my game limp and generally play it like pussies because many are not comfortable flipping for buy-ins and vastly under-value taking down a pot pre-flop. All the more reason their 3-bet range is sooooo LoL. That said, I'm paying off the case King with an Ace here every time and twice on friday because I run like shit on Friday.
The UTG open for a raise is whatever. Sometimes I raise there, sometimes I limp. It's a game flow and table dynamic thing.
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I think Fnord has it right. The key points that speak beyond this hand:
1. Live players don't understand the value of taking down pots pre-flop-- they always seem disappointed when nobody "gives them action" even though when you take down a pot pre-flop you have received money from the other players without having to take the risk of missing the flop or having someone suck out on you.
2. Live players overvalue trips. Seriously. The only time they ever fold them is when 2 players who obviously have a flush or a straight get into a raising war. They never, ever fold them to a full house. You can jump up and down on the table screaming that you have a better hand, and live players won't fold them unless there is an obvious flush or straight draw on the board.
3. As a result, what I am really thinking about in a hand like this is what their pre-flop range is. I can see situations where I would fold KK on an AAK board, but it would need to be against a player whom I would be fairly close to certain would not be in the hand without AA or AK. And the vast, vast majority of the live players I have played against don't fit within that criterion.
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floptquadswunc
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 44
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I thought you played it perfectly. You're never folding here, so your effort was at finding a way to get all the money in. You bet lite to make it look like a blocking bet, say with QQ, and villain went for it on every street with pocket 4's.
I have done this on a few occasions, but only against aware opponents. Unawares don't pick up on apparent weakness, so why bother? It's also very rare to not HAVE to protect against any draws.
This guy was aware though and it was sweet. You lead him by the nose right to the edge of the cliff, and he jumped straight freakin off. Nice.
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