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fulksy
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10-07-2008, 09:12 PM
Post subject: KK Short staked in tourny
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 1,018
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need some help on this scenario im UTG with KK with about 12000 left blinds 500/1000, i raised 4x BB, i didn't shove because even though this was a semi loose table i think i only get called by JJ+, AJs, AQo+ and i wanted to get some value out of my kings (planning on shoving any non ace board) folded to the big bling (about 55000 in chips) he calls. hes a loose player and i put his calling range on Axs, A7o+, 22+ KJs+, KQo so really not a good player because my 4xBB raise looks like a big hand (which i thought of but still thought i would get a caller) any ways board A 9 4 rainbow he bets 4000, do i just fold cause Ax is eaisly in his range or do i just shove hoping he was bluffing, Since i can eliminate AJ+ cause he would of put me all in preflop, and risk my tournament.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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I'll probably get told I'm wrong, but I would probably push here. Really depends on the level your at in the tournament. Bubble, money, etc. If your on the bubble...tough call. You could push hoping he's bluffing and maybe he'll put you on a bigger Ace, or something along those lines. Either way, tough decision. Pretty sure this hand has already been decided by now, but let me know how it went. I'm guessing you folded.
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fulksy
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 1,018
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their was about 30 left out of 83 i belive only top 9 got payed so still a ways out of the money, yea i did fold i figured i wouldn't get him off any ace since it would only be 4000 more to go, and ace was easily in his range. anyways he showed pocket 8's which really hurt but i managed to double up once before getting my AK allin called and beat by AQ ouch.
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dthorne04
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hi
Posts: 478
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yeah, i think you have to get it in here. you've already put in over 30% of your stack, and a lot of times his range will include a bluff, because with your stack size, you're apt to shove, due to the pot size, so he'd probably be looking to trap you if he flopped top pair or better.
also, i would open for less, you want to invite action with kk there. 2.5x-3x would be great.
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derp
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Shove preflop 
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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dthorne04
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hi
Posts: 478
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i don't like a shove unless your image is pretty bad, or unless you've been shoving a lot.
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derp
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fulksy
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 1,018
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yea i hade a pretty tight image and the majority of the table had been their for a while, they would call pretty tight on a shove, i think 2.5 to 3BB would of been better, this player was pretty bad he might check a set or two pairs but he wasn't smart enough to induce a shove with Ax he was betting any ace i think, regardless i think i should of got it in anyways like you said i had already invested 30%.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
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Anytime you put yourself in a position where the pot is at least as big as your stack if you raise, you should be pushing. Him betting into you is a pretty strange play on the flop. He knows you're pretty much committed. As played I think you need to shove on the flop. But I think it's a terrible mistake to make a standard raise with your stack.
If his calling range to a shove was AJ+ TT+ - That's perfect. It's not bad to just pick up the blinds. If you think they're calling too tight, you should push more in these spots.
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fulksy
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 1,018
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yea that makes way more sense, i got caught up just trying to make sure i get a caller. but i think shoving is defianetly correct, and as played i have to get it all in
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
But I think it's a terrible mistake to make a standard raise with your stack.
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Do you play many live tournaments? Especially small buy-ins?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
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Not a lot... less than 100. Why? What would you do, and how is this situation different live?
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
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Well haven't you found that in live donkaments, ppl assume you have the nuts the the first time you shove your stack? I don't think I have ever gotten a call the first time I have pushed in any live tournament. People will instafold almost all hands because you're pushing with 'a lot' of chips and they think you can't possibly be pushing it without something incredibly strong.
If you've pushed a bunch of times already and they start to think you're full of crap, then you can push the KK. Especially if you've been called once and you showed down something bad. If you haven't pushed yet or if you've only pushed once or twice so far, you shouldn't push something as strong as KK. People call with so much crap when it isn't for their entire stack, and they'll stack off with not much post flop once they're in the pot, too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Not where I play. I play a very tight hand selection in MTT's and I start playing very aggressive from late position when I get short stacked, and I get called with ridiculous ranges.
The low buy-in tournaments here are full of players who just got out of their home games. I recall one very similar situation with QQ with two limpers on the CO. Everybody folded and the guy to my right insta-called a 14BB AI for half his stack with T8. He said he knew I had him beat of course, but he had a feeling he was going to hit it. He didn't hit it.
I don't think you can have a good enough read to assume a very tight calling range from the blinds here. You are a shortstack in perfect stealing position and the BB won't get hurt very much if he calls.
I might be wrong. I haven't played MTT's online at all after I build my initial roll from freerolls.
But if you just raise, you pretty much have to reraise all-in in the OP's situation, right?
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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dthorne04
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hi
Posts: 478
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Differences between your hands and his. He's first to act, UTG. Also, at that point in the tournament, where people are likely nitting it up, I doubt many people are going to be calling his all in shove preflop with T8. you might get one or two people throughout the tournament who are legitimately that loose in a <$100 tournament, live.
As I said, unless you've been shoving a lot or have a terrible terrible image, open shoving 12 bbs here is probably quite bad, as he'd not been shoving often, so while players may not be the most aware at this level, they probably will notice he's been tight, and aren't going to be calling his 12 bb shove from utg with A2o.
However, if he makes it 2.5-3bbs which is optimal imo, you will see people make calls with a wider range of hands, and possibly feel pot stuck with a small pair on a low flop when we get it in. While opponents will likely put us on a big hand due to being tight, a lot of players will still call you preflop with 77, A8, etc. despite it being incorrect, and then can and often do give you action on what seems to be a favorable flop for them.
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derp
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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For some reason I thought he was at the CO... I keep mixing up threads.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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dthorne04
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hi
Posts: 478
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lol, no worries.
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derp
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fulksy
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 1,018
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thanks yea the tournament was $100 and their are tons of bad players, but i the range is pretty small for calling an UTG shove but a 2.5 - 3BB bet would defianetly get called by junk Axs A7+ 44+ KJs+ KQ at these small buy in tournies at least from what i've seen, so thats why i made a standard raise, but would shoving really be a terrible move UTG with everyone to act many arn't good enough to know UTG raises are usually very strong.
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,605
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I dunno if there is really a way to play this hand that badly as long as you get your stack in.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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