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sk8r_daniel
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10-31-2009, 03:46 AM
Post subject: KK.. bad play?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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What do you think of my 4bet pre?
Effective stack is $245
Table is loose and crazy as hell, calling everything and anything. Villain is a reg who calls with marginal hands/gambles a bit, but never ever reraises preflop. Her raise makes me think she has AA or KK....maybe QQ. My main concern is that if I ONLY call her bet, everyone else at the table will call as well. My thinking was I could take it down preflop with KK and fold if she shoves.
Hero is deal KcKs, raises to $12
3 calls,
Villain raises to $36
1 call.
I raise to $112.
2 folds.
Villain ships, shorty ($60 stack total) calls all in.
Hero....Folds
After doing the math I was only getting 2.64-1 on a call. I was 90% sure she had AA when she 3bet, and 100% sure when she 5bet. The thing is, if she was really that tight (I've played a ton with her) should I even bother 4betting?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,175
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I have yet to do it, but it is obvious to me there are situations where it would be very easy to lay down KK preflop in a live game.
If you think she is incapable of 5-bet shoving with worse I suppose a minraise will accomplish the same thing.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I wouldn't mind playing KK 5-way with nobody having more than a psb behind. They're going to get it in bad with tp and gutshots and overs and crap a lot.
If you're going to 4-bet, I don't like the sizing at all, and I'd never 4-bet KK planning to fold to a 5-bet. Do you think she's just going to call JJ, QQ, AK and pay you off after the flop, but not before the flop?
The 4-bet is huge in comparison with stack sizes - her only option is to shove or to fold (do I need to explain?) - so if you're going to 4b/f you might as well be doing it with any hand. I wouldn't waste KK on this.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,731
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NO. you cant fold KK after 4 bet preflop. In such loose limp-fest games, i'd definitely 4 bet, call a shove and feel happy about it.
BTW,I flat here against online TAG regulars the majority of the time.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
Do you think she's just going to call JJ, QQ, AK and pay you off after the flop, but not before the flop?
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Yes, because I know how she plays. I realize there is no way she shoves QQ or worse there. These people don't play standard online tag poker.
I definitely can see why my bet sizing is terrible though.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Well, I folded she showed AA and then a King hit on the flop...DOH!
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,349
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Sticking half your stack in the middle preflop then folding is pretty terrible. Either call the 3bet or be happy stacking off.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Ok dozer, I agree that it is a bad strategy to 4bet half stack and fold. But if I make the mistake of 4betting. And then I know 100% she has aces. Why would I call getting much worse than 4.5-1 on a call?
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melaos
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2
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mm, if you know she's tight and won't 3bet with anything better than QQ+, AK+, it would have been better to just call.
the thing i don't really like about KK is that it's easily fcked when somebody has Ax and a A falls on the flop.
so i would have just call her 3bet, and if there's no As on the flop and she stills big bet, i can safely lays the kings down to rest. but if she's trapping i'll call one small bet hoping to hit a set on the turn.
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idfk
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Two Pair
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Melboure, Australia
Posts: 28
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The short answer your 4bet preflop is fucking stupid.
The correct play in this situation would be to flat the 3 bet. If you are able to range someone specifically that well then you are better off to just flat call them on the chance that you can out-flop them.
Why are you concerned if anyone else on the table calls? IF anything, in this situation only you should be inviting as much action as possible. If you don't hit your set then you can easily pitch KK if you are still ranging your villain for AA. If you are seeing this flop 4-handed under the same theoretical circumstances (set mining and folding if you miss) then who cares if the entire table gets involved with the hand. Without giving you some sort of outrageous percentage, what do you think the percentage is that you will flop a set of Kings with an Ace, flush and or straight on the board?
Getting half of your stack out there is terrible as everyone has already mentioned and will continue to mention for generations to come.
What makes this even worse is that you flop your set and if you play the hand cute enough you can get her to ship the lot your way by the time it comes to showdown.
Your 4bet preflop cost you $281 (not including rake, tip and the potential remaining $24 off the short stack or the blinds).
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,731
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Given so much dead money on the table preflop, this is an obvious 4 bet preflop with kk in a potential 5-way pot.The big mistake OP made in this hand is his 4 bet sizing. 2.5x would be much better and let villian play incorrectly by flatting with JJ+ or AK. Also,i wouldn't mind folding KK to a shove after our 2.5x 4bet if I'm 100% sure this villian only 5 bet with AA based on my read and history.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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Move in, get it in bad, suck out, next hand.
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idfk
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Two Pair
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Melboure, Australia
Posts: 28
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Move in, get it in bad, suck out, next hand.
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Fnord - You're so lazy hahahha 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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"only getting 2.64-1 on a call" this seems wrong.
I don't get how this can be a fold with half our stack in the pot already and a short buy sweetening the pot.
That said, I'm dumping anything but AA/KK to a 3-bet in some of these games because the play is really that bad...
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flomarilius
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High Card
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10
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I would've made the call but yea good move you might have dodged rockets
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Vex444
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High Card
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 10
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
"only getting 2.64-1 on a call" this seems wrong.
I don't get how this can be a fold with half our stack in the pot already and a short buy sweetening the pot.
That said, I'm dumping anything but AA/KK to a 3-bet in some of these games because the play is really that bad...
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I agree here
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danoxford
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 29
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
"only getting 2.64-1 on a call" this seems wrong.
I don't get how this can be a fold with half our stack in the pot already and a short buy sweetening the pot.
That said, I'm dumping anything but AA/KK to a 3-bet in some of these games because the play is really that bad...
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Spot on. I've played a game once a week for years in which I have never seen a RR PF. They don't do it on a steal or bluff because they're not creative in any way, and they don't do it with their premiums because so they're so terrified of everyone folding and "wasting" it. But they'll call my reraises with 76o, because "they haven't seen any cards yet".
God I'm getting tingles, I love that game.
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