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pokerfan
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02-19-2010, 11:47 PM
Post subject: JJ ran into 3 way all-in situation
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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10-handed live 1/2NL. I'm certainly the tightest player at the table.UTG played loose aggressive preflop and opened $11,BT had a huge stack and called,sb called, I picked up JJ in BB and 3bet up to $40, UTG folded,BT 4 bet/shove, sb called, Fold or pure pot odds call? What if hero has AK? It seemed that BT was capable of slowplaying QQ+,AK and SB probably called with a range including TT-QQ or AQ+. In general,BT and sb both played loose but a bit passive preflop.
stack:
BT:$800
SB:$110
hero:$210
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Does AKo have lower equity than JJ in multiway preflop all-in pot given ranges above, right?
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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170 to call into a pot of 331 gives us:
170/(170+331)=33.9% pot odds
Against your estimated ranges, you only have about 30% equity here.
If button would only 4-bet push after cold calling with KK+, AK, then your equity improves to 32.9%, because of one less hand that has you crushed.
Finally, if you were wrong about button, and he would only do this with KK or AA (or even QQ) and never with AK, then you've only got 17% equity.
Unless you have a certain read that BU will make this play without a big pair, you've got to fold I think.
And yes against the same ranges AK fares significantly worse.
I hope I've worked that out correctly!
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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As default I think your range for SB is way, way, too tight. With pot odds and short stack he could be shoving a huge range of hands: any PP, Ax/Kx, T9s, etc.
The problem is the BT; maybe he's trapping with a monster but I would think he'd auto 3-bet a LAG UTG open. Once UTG folds he could be backraising a lot of pairs or AK because he thinks you're just squeezing.
The fact that you're the tightest player at the table 3-betting an UTG open OOP means you're very strong, do you think BT is observant of this? I think I'd call.
Without better reads I'd put their ranges on something like this:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.956% 41.23% 00.73% 47803081992 844415492.00 { JJ }
Hand 1: 20.631% 19.87% 00.76% 23044708908 876389666.00 { QQ-22, A5s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, A7o+, KTo+ }
Hand 2: 37.414% 36.35% 01.07% 42143897016 1236846278.00 { 88+, AQs+, AQo+ }
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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I agree that SB likely has a much wider range with his call there, but I'm still not convinced BU is making this play with hands like 99 or AQ.
If BU is aware of your image (most people notice the tightest player at the table), then I don't think he would come to the conclusion that you're squeezing. Hell I don't even know if players typically at this level even know what a squeeze IS. I'd rather assume that he puts you on a very narrow range here, on exactly the sort of hand you have {JJ+, AK}.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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Reads on the button are really important...the thing is, if he has a read that OP is really tight maybe he's counting on him to fold TT/JJ. Still don't see him flatting on the button with QQ vs. a LAG raise.
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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Casino players love to trap. Does BU like to trap? I agree it really does depend on the plentiful reads you should have collected on your opponent by this point. OP did state that BU would slowplay QQ+, and this is the reason why I think he thought he'd initially try to trap the aggressive UTG, but then when a player perceived as very tight comes in 3-betting from the blinds, he's pushing trying to get a call out of JJ or QQ imo!
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eugmac
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 739
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by the way, does the table have a max buyin? How did the BU end up with such a big stack?
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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BT is a regular semi-loose player who I think is unlikely to observe table image IMO. He already had a big stack before I got there.However,I've never seen him backraise/shove 100BB before but I think that he is one of types who is capable of slowplaying QQ and AK.Still,I don't think that he'd play AA or KK this way cuz casino ppl love to min 3bet with these two hands.Assuming that BT shoves with a tight range of QQ,AK and that sb calls with a range of KQ+, TT+, we have 38% equity vs their range. AK probably has about 30% equity 3 way all-in.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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OK with a semi-loose, unobservant big stack and what has to be considered dead money with the SB all-in, I think you have to call this. Plenty of big stack bullies will shove on you with worse pairs and AQ. Trust me, I've seen people call or shove for $200 all-ins preflop with AJ in $1/$2 games.
I understand that AK fares worse against most normal preflop stacking off ranges, but there are a lot of spots where you'd rather have AK than JJ, as plenty of $1/$2 players will lay down JJ and even QQ to a shove preflop.
Adjusting some ranges:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.445% 32.87% 04.57% 3337827485 463994423.83 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 22.393% 21.35% 01.05% 2167294824 106347334.83 { QQ-22, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 40.162% 36.06% 04.10% 3660996072 416714738.33 { 88+, AQs+, AQo+ }
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Barring more information I'd just get it in and have mixed feelings about it.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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As played,I was chickened out and folded JJ,which I think is incorrect equity wise regardless of the result.
BT:AKs
SB:KQs
board: K533T
BT scooped the pot.
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