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Iconoclastic

06-03-2005, 12:23 AM Post subject: Iconoclastic's Playing Style Wheel

#1 (permalink)

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Correct me if you've seen the idea expressed this way before.

Since I'm not sure how to draw a circle online, a linear representation will have to suffice.

The style that is on the left side of the --> is the best style against the style on its right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loose Passive --> Loose Aggressive --> Tight Aggressive --> Tight Passive --> Loose Passive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To apply this concept you will have to figure out which your opponent is playing as (which may depend on what they think you are) and go with the one that beats it. Much like Rock Paper Scissors, except there may be several adjustments made during the course of just one hand.

The best way to beat a calling station would be to not bluff (Passive) and play Tight. The best way to beat a Maniac would be to induce bluffs and call them with a larger range of hands (essentially become a calling station of sorts). The best way to beat a solid player is to bluff them mercilessly but call often so that they stop bluffing you. And the best way to beat a rock is to bluff them mercilessly yet fold easily to their raises.

My PSW actually goes against the conventional poker maxim that you should stick to Tight Aggressive play. In reality that only works well against rocks. Against Maniacs calling rarely and bluffing often is a recipe for disaster. This also explains why the tip-top pros are often Loose Aggressive as most professional players are Tight Aggressive. The misconception that Tight Aggressive is best while other styles are fishy (or bad, as one of my misguided poker buddy calls them) leads to players not adjusting their play constantly as they need to.

Also, the incorrect belief that there is a hierarchal, rather than fluid, order in styles, is the likely cause of the confusion among beginners regarding the correct play because they're playing the wrong style against the right opponent.

On a related pet peeve note, is it just me or do beginners post in the Strategies or Hand Histories sections now instead of the proper Beginner's Circle. It seems like they all just quickly migrate to the forums with better players and post a ton of hands featuring the most elementary poker problems which are quite boring to experienced players. It really drags down the quality of that section; I don't think I'm the only one who enjoy visiting these sections less than before due to this phenomenon.

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

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Staple Gun

06-03-2005, 12:42 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Well the playing "wheel" looks about right. As for the beginners posting in this forum, it's obvious why they would do it, they will get much quicker feedback on hands ands such here than in the beginners section. While I would rather if they stay there for a while you cant blame them for wanting to get the most out of this site.

Iconoclastic

06-03-2005, 03:36 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Well I felt a little more sympathetic toward noobs after reading your post but then again, the beginners section is where the fundamentals are; by skipping over the fundamentals honestly they wouldn't truly understand the logic behind the advice they would receive in the more advanced sections. They're only hurting their own game by coming to these sections too early.

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

journey075

06-03-2005, 04:02 AM

#4 (permalink)

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i like your wheel, its well thought out. obviously oversimplified but great general advice nonetheless.

about beginners posting in this forum, well think about it like this. at the stakes most of us play at 2/4 NL and less, theres still a huge quantity of fish. its not about mind games as much as playing cards aggressively with position. technically arent we all playing with 'beginners'? i agree some HH posted show some blatantly obvious mistakes, but i dont think its so bad. give 'em a chance

DBL0SVN

06-03-2005, 01:39 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Really interesting idea about the wheel - hadn't thought of it like that before. But now it's obvious that since most bginners start as loose passives, the natural progression of a poker player as they improve is to the left on your chart ie. tighten up starting hands (TP) then learn about aggression and position (TA) then figure out that the very top players play a very laggy style.

As to the beginners posting elsewhere, most people (including myself when I started) soon don't think of themselves as beginners. It's the same as thinking everyone else is a fish when you're just as fishy.

dalecooper

06-03-2005, 02:44 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DBL0SVN

figure out that the very top players play a very laggy style.

Don't generalize too much here... it's true that a lot of great pros, especially the young ones like Negreanu and Ivey, are very LAggy. But a lot of guys that are considered just as good are contrastingly very tight - Harrington, Hellmuth, Cloutier.

Rondavu

06-03-2005, 02:58 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I think the most interesting aspect of the wheel is the fact that a complete beginner could theoretically step right onto a high stakes table and clean up with a loose passive style against all the loose aggressives.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

DBL0SVN

06-03-2005, 03:03 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBL0SVN

figure out that the very top players play a very laggy style.

Nothing is written in stone. Iconoclastic's poker wheel is just a framework to compare the strengths of different styles. I'm sure the best players can and do change their style, ie move around the wheel, to suit the circumstances. however, it does account for why the Laggy style, in good hands, works so well against reasonable-good players who are generally TA.

a500lbgorilla

06-03-2005, 03:19 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DBL0SVN

figure out that the very top players play a very laggy style.

ilikeaces86

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Iconoclastic

06-06-2005, 10:14 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I just realized this thread should have been placed in Playing the Player. Doh.

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

ChezJ

06-07-2005, 03:28 PM

#11 (permalink)

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TAG style is the best style against loose passives.

Iconoclastic

06-07-2005, 06:08 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

TAG style is the best style against loose passives.

So you would bluff a person who will call you down with almost anything and hope they fold? And that is preferable to being Tight Passive and not bluffing them??

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

a500lbgorilla

06-07-2005, 06:25 PM

#13 (permalink)

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{Moved from HE Strats}

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

stuck

06-07-2005, 08:52 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

TAG style is the best style against loose passives.

So you would bluff a person who will call you down with almost anything and hope they fold? And that is preferable to being Tight Passive and not bluffing them??

I would agree with ChezJ here. TaGG is the way to go - just don't bluff! Hammer your TPTK as they call down with middle pair or a gutshot.

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

ChezJ

06-07-2005, 09:21 PM

#15 (permalink)

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TAG's don't bluff much. They are tight. But they do semi-bluff strong draws in order build large pots from all the loose passive calling stations.

Tight-passives only bet after they hit their draws, winning smaller pots when all their opponents fold their missed draws on the river. Tight-passives often lose to loose-passive calling stations by not properly protecting their hands against draws.

TAG's raise with marginal hands in large pots in order to blow away the calling stations who may fold equally marginal hands when faced with a cold call decision.

I think tight-passives win the most against loose-aggressives, by consciously trapping them.

ChezJ

ChezJ

06-07-2005, 09:29 PM

#16 (permalink)

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In my home game, there's one super loose aggressive and one super loose passive and whenever they get heads up, it just becomes a cointoss as to who will win.

The first guy will bet to the river with anything and the other will call him down with anything. they might as well check it down every time! I would not say that one is consistently beating the other.

ChezJ

ChezJ

06-07-2005, 09:37 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

My PSW actually goes against the conventional poker maxim that you should stick to Tight Aggressive play. In reality that only works well against rocks.

It may be true that TAG is not the best style under all circumstances. I agree with you on that principle. But the second sentence I quoted is patently false. The TAG style taught by SSH (and FTR) excels the most against loose passive opposition. My bankroll is living proof of this.

ChezJ

Roco415

06-08-2005, 12:57 AM

#18 (permalink)

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very interesting concept, and chez, where did u get those custom chips and for how much

Roco415.

Iconoclastic

06-08-2005, 03:42 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

TAG style is the best style against loose passives.

So you would bluff a person who will call you down with almost anything and hope they fold? And that is preferable to being Tight Passive and not bluffing them??

I would agree with ChezJ here. TaGG is the way to go - just don't bluff! Hammer your TPTK as they call down with middle pair or a gutshot.

Well you said "just don't bluff!" Aggression is nothing but bluffing. Betting your good hands has nothing to do with Aggression. I thought everyone agreed that Aggressive-Passive only referred to how much you bluff, and nothing to do with betting for value. I conceptualized Tight Passive as someone who only bets when they have a good hand- like TPTK. Which is exactly the style you recommend against Loose Passives.

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

arkana

06-08-2005, 01:46 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Aggression is how much more often you raise\bet than call and not necessarily how much you bluff.

Iconoclastic

06-08-2005, 08:11 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by arkana

Aggression is how much more often you raise\bet than call and not necessarily how much you bluff.

Then one player who bets only when they have a good hand and never bluffs and another player who only bluffs and always checks their good hands would be both characterized identically as Aggressive if they have the same raise/bet frequency, but that tag would be absolutely useless as you cannot play both players the same way.

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

a500lbgorilla

06-08-2005, 08:46 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Being aggro encompasses the frequency of your bets. You can be aggro with made hands, you can be aggro with missed hands. Being aggro is both situations makes you...aggro!

Players who would only bet when they missed would be considered an aggro player, becuase they'll be betting a lot more frequently that the player who only bets with made hands. The second player is no aggro, he will not be betting with near the frequency of the prior. Both will lose, but player A will look better doing it.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

arkana

06-08-2005, 08:55 PM

#23 (permalink)

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If you give two players exactly the same cards the more aggressive player will be betting\raising more and calling less, that will include bluffing but its not just about bluffing its about betting with sets, top pair, middle pair, betting with draws (semi bluffs) betting with PP on a board with overcards etc.

storm75m

06-08-2005, 09:29 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Loose/Tight = determined by how many flops they see, how many hands they're playing

Passive/Aggressive = determined by how much they bet/raise compared to how much they check/call

I don't think either one has anything to do with frequency of bluffs...

Right?

(Oh, and nice original post BTW, learned something new today)

Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.

Iconoclastic

06-08-2005, 10:32 PM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

But my objection is still unresolved- players who only bet when they miss but NOT when they hit often have the same short term frequency as a player who only bets when they hit and not when they miss, making the Aggressive label effectively useless if applied to frequency of betting rather than frequency of bluffing.

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

ChezJ

06-09-2005, 05:38 AM

#26 (permalink)

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if you think aggression = bluffing, you've got a lot of learning to do.

aggression is merely the opposite of passivity.

a passive player will bet with TP on the flop but call when bet into.

an aggressive player will raise some flops with second pair. it's not bluffing, it's protecting his hand and buying outs.

a passive player will check and call with a nut flush draw.

an aggressive player with bet and raise with any flush draw or even a gutshot with one pair. again, it's not really bluffing, although he'd love to win the pot right there. he is betting on the strength of his pot equity.

if these concepts are foreign to you, it's time to read some books.

ChezJ

p.s. regarding my chips, you can read about them in the "Home Games" forum.

Iconoclastic

06-09-2005, 04:48 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

By your description, a player who calls with a good hand when bet into yet bets when they have nothing is still considered a Passive player. Is this correct? Please respond to my previous objection raised earlier as it renders your definition fundamentally flawed.

What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?

A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.

storm75m

06-09-2005, 04:59 PM

#28 (permalink)

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Copied from a dictionary for "Poker Aggression"

In the game of poker, Opens and Raises are considered aggressive plays, while Calls and Checks are considered passive (though a Check-raise would be considered an aggressive play). It is said that "aggression has its own value", meaning that often aggressive plays can make money with weak hands because of Bluff value. Aggressive plays also tend to give the opponents more opportunities to make mistakes.

Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.

storm75m

06-09-2005, 05:11 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

By your description, a player who calls with a good hand when bet into yet bets when they have nothing is still considered a Passive player. Is this correct?

If you call with a good hand, you're being passive, if you bet with nothing, that's aggressive. Pretty simple man, bet or raise = aggressive, call or check = passive.

bluffing has nothing to do with it.

Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.

stuck

06-09-2005, 05:43 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

I think the player who bluffs more would increase the "Looseness" of his play, while the player who only plays his made hands would be "Tight"er.

Aggression really doesn't have anything to do with bluffing. Betting is aggressive, calling is passive. Yes, bluffing is an aggressive move, but so is betting with TPTK or a flush or whatever.

Make sense?

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

a500lbgorilla

06-13-2005, 01:39 PM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Classifying a player isn't an exact science. There are a lot of other abilities that you need to win. Not just 18 VPIP and an aggression factor greater than a billion.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

EricE

06-16-2005, 06:53 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Assuming a normal distribution of hands, a player classified as aggressive is bluffing or at least semi bluffing a certain % of the time. Therefore aggressive implies bluffing but is not defined by it. I don’t see how it would be possible for a player to be aggressive and not bluff (again, unless we assume an uneven distribution of hands).

Doesn’t that get-at what some people are trying to say or did I miss the boat?

gabe

06-26-2005, 04:44 PM

#33 (permalink)

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this doesn't seem right. tight passive and tight aggressive should be switched. right? TAG owns LP more than TP does. but TP doesn't really pwn TAG players, so i don't know. maybe this wheel just doesn't work?

pokerfanatic

06-26-2005, 05:46 PM

#34 (permalink)

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loose Passive --> Loose Aggressive --> Tight Aggressive --> Tight Passive --> Loose Passive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

personally I think that, Tight Aggressive can fit in many places along this wheel that's why IMO it's the best way to play low stakes against unaware players... the Lagg might take several small pots off you but when you hold the nuts boy are you taking a large pot off him if he doesn't have the discipline to slow down... the Tagg pwns the loose passive player and the tight passive, the loose passive is easy to play against they call down any pair, and raise the real strong holdings, the tight passive will only be in the hand with strong hand so you know exactly when the hell to get out of the way and not be aggressive into this guy w/o the nuts.... So with that said could we reinvent the wheel not really, unless you want to look at it on a two way street like below and bend it around to connect each side... A great player can play the Tagg or Lagg style to perfection and make money...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loose Passive< -- Loose Aggressive <--> Tight Aggressive --> Tight Passive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord

Greedo017

06-28-2005, 10:40 AM

#35 (permalink)

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"Then one player who bets only when they have a good hand and never bluffs and another player who only bluffs and always checks their good hands would be both characterized identically as Aggressive if they have the same raise/bet frequency, but that tag would be absolutely useless as you cannot play both players the same way."

i get what you're saying. i think its implied in the tight passive title that the person is raising their hands from the best down. its pretty rare to come across a player who will bet twos and check aces. i think rare enough you can ignore it.

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