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pokerfan
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12-14-2009, 08:25 AM
Post subject: I was totally lost with my overpair QQ here
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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9-handed 1/2NL loose game. Early on in this session , I already lost my 120BB stack ( over pair KK on Td 9d 5c 9 board ) to a loose retarded player who sucked out with trips 9 on the turn. So i think ppl at this table views me as a tight player who plays overpairs aggressively. Villian in this hand is a loose aggressive donk and probably overvalues TPGK a little bit. However, i already saw him c/r & bet out with flopped straight twice in limped pot. He also donk bet big on ace high two tone flop vs my KK and i mucked it.
so i had QQ from UTG1 and raised to $12, 1 caller and villian in sb called. I had about $230 behind, villian got me covered.
flop: 2d 3c 5h rainbow villian checked, i bet $25, 1 folds, villian c/r to $65, i used my position advantage and flat called. Should i just get it in here or snap fold?
turn: 5c villian bet $100, what to do NOW?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I think you can fold it unless you've seen him overplay smaller pairs.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Why did you call the check/raise? What are you looking to happen on the turn?
Against a lot of players that 5 is a good card for you.
My standard is to go with the hand, but there is a lot going on here...
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Why did you call the check/raise? What are you looking to happen on the turn?
Against a lot of players that 5 is a good card for you.
My standard is to go with the hand, but there is a lot going on here...
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my original game plan is to get it in on any none 5,A or 6 turn.I might be way off the track in the heat of the moment cuz this guy seemed like a clueless tard  . So we should shove over his flop raise,right?I know I'd snap fold right on the flop if I played against other standard live passive players.
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FetusChrist
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High Card
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14
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I'd fold there. It's not like you're not going to get some money off of him in the hands to come.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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It seems to me that your decision point comes with the check-raise on the flop. What range of hands do you put him on calling your early position raise from the sb and check-raising the flop? How much equity do you have here? Stove, anyone?
But to me, this is re-raise or fold. Either you think he's got you crushed (calling with what Fnord likes to call a "dogshit" hand and crushing the flop, or trying to trap you with kings or aces) or you are way ahead with a very wet board and need to protect your hand. Calling the flop just postpones the day of reckoning while committing a significant amount of money that you will never get back.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
It seems to me that your decision point comes with the check-raise on the flop. What range of hands do you put him on calling your early position raise from the sb and check-raising the flop? How much equity do you have here? Stove, anyone?
But to me, this is re-raise or fold. Either you think he's got you crushed (calling with what Fnord likes to call a "dogshit" hand and crushing the flop, or trying to trap you with kings or aces) or you are way ahead with a very wet board and need to protect your hand. Calling the flop just postpones the day of reckoning while committing a significant amount of money that you will never get back.
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oh, man. These loose live donks can call my 6x-8x preflop raise with any shit  I wouldnt be surprised at all if he called with 23o, 53o and 52o let alone 64s,64o and A4. The thing is, this donkey guy plays aggressively and seems so freaking unpredictable. BTW, he did flop straight twice in 4 way limped pot and c/r his nut hands but he is certainly capable of c/r with other worse pairs or overpair shit which he thinks is good hands :P
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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The 5 is a good card for you then, get it in.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
The 5 is a good card for you then, get it in.
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why ? you dont think that he can have 5 in his wide range? I chickened out and mucked it. Damn it! weak tight.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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The 5 is a bad card for just about anything that doesn't have a 5 in it...
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
It seems to me that your decision point comes with the check-raise on the flop. What range of hands do you put him on calling your early position raise from the sb and check-raising the flop? How much equity do you have here? Stove, anyone?
But to me, this is re-raise or fold. Either you think he's got you crushed (calling with what Fnord likes to call a "dogshit" hand and crushing the flop, or trying to trap you with kings or aces) or you are way ahead with a very wet board and need to protect your hand. Calling the flop just postpones the day of reckoning while committing a significant amount of money that you will never get back.
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oh, man. These loose live donks can call my 6x-8x preflop raise with any shit I wouldnt be surprised at all if he called with 23o, 53o and 52o let alone 64s,64o and A4. The thing is, this donkey guy plays aggressively and seems so freaking unpredictable. BTW, he did flop straight twice in 4 way limped pot and c/r his nut hands but he is certainly capable of c/r with other worse pairs or overpair shit which he thinks is good hands :P |
I think we need stove here to inject some precision. What % of his range is stuff we beat on the flop? What % of his range is stuff we are losing to? If we're ahead, I'm re-raising on the flop. If we're behind, I may fold it. I'm not calling.
That said, as played, I totally agree with Fnord that the 5 is awful for everything the villain might have that doesn't have a 5 in it-- it counterfeits 2 pairs, and induces him to worry that his straights and straight draws may no longer be good against a boat. Push your chips in and pray.
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sexualbanana
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9
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I agree. Calling the check-raise won't accomplish much. I know you're hoping for a non-scary card to come on the turn before making a move, but you also have to consider the possible action on the turn on river. Say you call the check-raise. The pot is now ~$150. Pot control has completely gone out the window with his check-raise. A 'standard' bet on the turn is going to be in the neighborhood of $80-$100 leaving you with $150 if you decide to fold. So imo, flat-calling the check-raise doesn't help unless you think the villain will check the turn, in which case you should shove.
There are 2 options on the flop here, I think. Both are equally good and depends entirely on your own mindset and your bankroll (and how you manage it).
1) Re-shove. This guy sounds like an average player with an average cash-game range of hands. It's not entirely unheard of for a super-aggressive player (which sounds like this guy is) to check-raise you with a stupid hand like A5 or 45. It could also be a bluff thinking you were c-betting with 2 overcards. Against his range, I think you're good to get your money in here.
2) Fold. Like Fetuschrist said, it's likely you can get more money off him in later hands. There's no shame in folding here.
Like I said, it depends on how you manage your bankroll. I personally, would shove and take my chances against him. But since you had just recently gotten stacked, I would understand if you were hesitant to get your money in here. In which case, fold and find a better spot to take advantage of him.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Flatting keeps the hands we want to be up against in the pot.
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sexualbanana
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Flatting keeps the hands we want to be up against in the pot.
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Like what? The only hand he should be 'worried' about is 54 maybe 65. OP has said the Villain sometimes gets out of line with TPGK, and he's already gotten out of line with a check-raise if he does have a 5. OP's not going to get anymore out of him unless he's beat. 66-99 are probably going to fold to a shove over top, and they would more than likely shut down if you call their check-raise.
There are 2 options for the later rounds if you flat-call the check-raise:
1) Villain checks the turn (assume for second it's not a 5). You now have ~$150 in a pot of $165. You can't bet 1/2 pot and leave yourself with $70 in a $210+ pot, you're only move is to shove here and they fold.
2) Check behind. I don't think I need to justify how bad it is to give a free card in this situation.
I think this hand highlights the importance of playing aggressive poker because it puts your opponent on your heels and takes away their options, because his turn bet forced you into a shove-or-fold situation, and most players would fold and live to fight another day regardless of what their read actually is.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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If you flat the flop you're getting it in on the turn barring a really bad card or a credible tip off that he's got you beat.
By flatting you avoid letting him bet/fold hands like 99 or giving up on a bluff. Instead he'll follow through or try to protect on the turn and then you can potfuck him.
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sexualbanana
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9
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What do you define as a bad card? If a 5 through T comes on the turn are you suddenly going to think they hit their set or trips? The biggest mistake he can make here is deciding to commit his chips on the flop if he has an overpair. Unfortunately the flop was so low it really didn't do too much in helping define your hand, but if he happens to think his overpair might be good, that's where you want him to make his mistake. There are simply too many other cards out there (regardless of the fact he's probably drawing to 2 outs) that I don't want to see on the turn because it will fog up an already cloudy situation.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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My conclusion: shove > flat >>> fold vs this type of opponent on these coordinated low cards flops if we only play around 100BB deep. 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sexualbanana
If a 5 through T comes on the turn are you suddenly going to think they hit their set or trips?
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LOL NO!
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