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sk8r_daniel
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03-05-2009, 07:28 AM
Post subject: I suck online....but live is awesome!
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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I cannot get over how bad players at 1-2 are live! I mean, I'm a decent cash game player, and can play .5-1 somewhat profitably online, but I never thought I would have these kind of results.
Only 20 sessions and about 105 hours of play, but over $3000 in profits. I know i've been running hot, but I've been playing very solid poker. I say screw online play if I can make $30 dollars an hour at 1-2.
Lol, sorry for my ridiculous brag post, I don't get to do it very often and I very tired after a 10 hour session.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Here is a hand example.
Context: It is very late at night and the table is 5 handed. I have some history with opponent. He is a solid tag from what I know, who knows how to lay down a hand. He knows that I can be really aggressive and when he was playing with me earlier he kept spanking me.
The rest of the table are loose passive donks.
I have $500, villain has $200.
I raise with 44 from UTG to 7$.
Everyone folds and villain calls from the BB.
Flop is 542, 2 spades.
He checks and I bet 12$
He calls and the turn is a 6h.
He checks again and I bet $20 (I know he would call me with 2 pair here) He calls.
River is a 2c and he bets out for $35. I raise to $95 and then he goes all in for the rest and shows me 7h 8h.
WHY WOULD HE PUSH THE RIVER???? I have no clue, he must have thought I would call with a straight or he was just really tired.
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DA9ers
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 48
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yeah i've noticed that as well. there's so much limping and passive play in live 1/2. its easy for a solid aggressive player to just tear that game apart. I think a lot of it is that when people actually have to put physical chips in the pot, they hesitate because its closer to actual money. also, this limit is way above what the average person plays. If an online player who plays .5/.10 nl goes to a casino with 200 bucks and wants to take a shot at 1/2, they're out of their comfort zone, they probably be playing passive and wont be trying to make huge bluffs for a lot of chips, whereas online, it's a different story.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 834
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It's really difficult to sustain a $20+/hr at 1/2 live on the long run. Atleast you are aware your running hot but I would not plan ahead thinking $30/hr is what your actual rate is. Live poker has higher rake and tipping as well, which means you really have to be crushing the game. Luckily live players are really bad to help with that con.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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I am keeping a graph of all my stats and how much I spend on food and tips and everything. Hopefully I will keep running well and maybe post a few hands where I think I played bad. I think what really made me better was reading HOH cash game books 1 and 2. It really ingrained alot of things I already knew, but wasn't applying correctly.
Its so nice to be able to see cheap flops all the time, get proper drawing odds to gut shots in large pots, lol, and being able to spot weakness fairly easily.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DA9ers
yeah i've noticed that as well. there's so much limping and passive play in live 1/2. its easy for a solid aggressive player to just tear that game apart. I think a lot of it is that when people actually have to put physical chips in the pot, they hesitate because its closer to actual money. also, this limit is way above what the average person plays. If an online player who plays .5/.10 nl goes to a casino with 200 bucks and wants to take a shot at 1/2, they're out of their comfort zone, they probably be playing passive and wont be trying to make huge bluffs for a lot of chips, whereas online, it's a different story.
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I think this is true for a lot of people, but apparently not for me.  I play 5nl online right now, but I comfortably walk into my local cardroom with $400-600 with intentions of walking out up at $200+.
I'm only 18 and a college student, but the amount of money I stand to lose doesn't really bother me, and I find it amusing to see people twice my age scared to put money in with AA PF because "they KNOW its gonna get sucked out on." L O L
God I love poker 
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poker3player333
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 52
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Brag away. I also do like live play, but don't get around to casinos much. May play some 1/2 live in July, but hope to have results as good as you.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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My theory on live play is that a lot of people find it boring to play a tight-aggressive game live. Online, you can multitable, and even if you just play one table, you see a lot more hands. A lot of people are also doing other things while they play poker (this isn't advisable, but just as a matter of reality, it clearly happens). So people can make themselves be more patient and not play trash hands.
In a casino, you may have to wait a couple of hours before one really playable opportunity arises (obviously, you'll probably see more flops than that, but I mean a situation where you have a betting opportunity when the flop comes, either in the form of hitting the flop, missing but having a good chance to take down the pot, or having a good draw).
People don't have the patience to wait. They have to sit there and do nothing (because it doesn't occur to them to pay close attention and get interested in what the other players are doing). At best, they might be able to listen to an ipod or something.
So, instead, they start loosening up their game, seeing more flops, getting into the action.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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/agree with everything LawDude said.
However, there are some very particular details about how people loosen up that are important to keep track of.
One important adjustment is that I probably only steal from the Button with the top ~40% of hands in a live game and I open for 4x instead of my online opener of 3x because I know most of my profit from this raise is comming from post-flop.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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The main reason I switched from live to online as a source of income is that when you're playing live the swings are a lot worse. You have a higher edge, but since you play so few hands per week/month/year your swings are a lot rougher.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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No way the swings I expect to have at $5/$10 Live would be anywhere near what they would be online. If I drop $20k in that game, I'll quit poker.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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So what is a typical BB/100 for a live 1/2 game if you are really good?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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What's the rake and how bad do your opponents play?
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
So what is a typical BB/100 for a live 1/2 game if you are really good?
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i played a hell of a lot of live1/2 NL cash when i stayed in canada last year. I think that if you are really good and play solid TA style in your local loose passive cardroom, some reasonable winning rate is around $22-30 per hour over a large sample size of hands.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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I dont know about sk8r_daniels game, but I was going to ask a similar question.
The rake at my game is 10% up to $6 and an extra dollar per pot (if the flop is seen) that goes into a bad beat jackpot.
Average play is actually pretty terrible, typical loose/passive stations or insanely maniacal college students that raise every hand to $30 PF. (theres more of the stations tho).
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Pokerfan, I am playing at Casino NS lol.
And the rake is 1 dollar for every 10 dollars and maxes at 4 dollars.
There is also 1 dollar for any pot over 15 dollars for the bad beat.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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Damn, I'm jealous lol. You get $5 max taken out of a pot, I get $7. WTF
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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It used to be 1 $ for every 20 in the pot, but they changed it a few years ago.
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AlKo4g7iC
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario , Canada
Posts: 25
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i dont play at casino's as of yet, ive been grinding online and i would say im getting sick of it id rather play live where more skill is involved. i am not the greatest no limit hold em player but by the sounds of things i got a chance live , which i dont play enough. congratulations by the way first poster on the 30 dollar an hour profit i hope it continues annualy good luck man.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AlKo4g7iC
live where more skill is involved
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Wat? Live is full of gambool monkies who play poker just like any other house game. Very little thought about strategy or making good plays. Unless you consider "feelings", favorite hands and astrology to be part of making good plays.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KoRnholio
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AlKo4g7iC
live where more skill is involved
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Wat? Live is full of gambool monkies who play poker just like any other house game. Very little thought about strategy or making good plays. Unless you consider "feelings", favorite hands and astrology to be part of making good plays. |
You'd be surprised how many people in live games have told me that "10-4 [or some other trash hand] is my lucky hand, I always play it". As soon as I hear this sort of thing, I think "this is not a winning poker player".
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,526
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Rofl ^^^THIS^^^ I've heard so much shit like that. Q2 seems to be the unanimous fav at my local poker room. God its like being at 2nl again... Ah the memories
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
Pokerfan, I am playing at Casino NS lol.
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yeah, i played a hell of a lot of poker out there before i switched to online multi-tabling FR &6-max in my main games. Its incredibly easy to PWN these casino low-level thinking donks and make big chunk of money on weekends as long as you are diciplined and have huge patience. IMO
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Poker Orifice
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Flush
Join Date: May 2008
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 324
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Well.. I don't 'suck online' but unfortunately the nearest Casino to my place is almost a 3hr. drive away (have to factor in the cost of gas, etc.) so I don't get alot of live experience. There are a few local games here where I live though - all set up sng style. Also a few tourneys each month with around 100 entrants at $30 to $75 buyin.
and.. YAH... the players are the complete shits!!! I can't even believe how bad they actually play. There's no logical reasoning behind it whatsoever (ie. raise it up 6x from BTN w KK, and have 3 of the 4 limpers call ya.... it's insane; or you get the smallish bet on flop & turn (same size, around 2xmin., same on turn or 'doubled' on turn) and the big POT bet on the river in a tourney, lol... w air??).
On the other hand, playing tourney-style poker with these donks can be tedious and annoying as well, having them call off all their chips on a shove w a weak fl dr on the turn, calling a flop shove with bottom pr. and then having their J-6soooooted pr. the J on the river and then listen to the chorus of 'Nice Hand' ("gee.. that's my 'favourite' hand too" lol). Getting them on a cash table.... now that'd be a treat.
I played a fair bit of live poker over 2 decades ago (different scene then) and now after having played awhile online (and having read a few dozen books on the game & studied it to some extent) it just amazes me how many players totally suck. It's like a home game of blind baseball or follow the bitch,.... any two cards is a starting hand and by all means call any raises out of position, especially if you're not closing out the action, lol. What are they thinking?... oh yah.... probably not much.
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"SEIBORG"
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Taicho
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 102
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Man reading this thread I can't wait to go to Vegas (I'm going for my 21st birthday in April). I think I'll just look around for a table full of obvious tourists 
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Still running hot...>36bb/100 hands over 5,000 hands
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
Still running hot...>36bb/100 hands over 5,000 hands
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well, 5000 hands(short-term) really means nothing when we talk about poker real variance. You know what? i played around 380,000 hands last year alone on stars, hit two wicked 10 buyins downswings in the middle and still managed to win a hell of a lot of money though.
ha ha, Poker can be very frustrating at times
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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holy $%^ 380,000 hands.... That would take a lifetime in live poker. I know its still a small sample but atleast now its a sample, lol.
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gonefishin420
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: ST. Louis
Posts: 8
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POKERFAN: "You know what? i played around 380,000 hands last year alone"
I ask how your able to calculate the amount of hands you play if u play that much..or is that just a guesstement
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gonefishin420
POKERFAN: "You know what? i played around 380,000 hands last year alone"
I ask how your able to calculate the amount of hands you play if u play that much..or is that just a guesstement
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wow, i think you noobs need to hang around this forum as long as you can. HaHa, Online poker is sooooo different than live games in every aspect that we can calculate the amount of hands in our tracking software for sure.
welcome to massive online poker world and make some donkey donation to our poker community. 
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dutch96
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 40
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Ive been playing live 400 nl now for about 8 months now as well as micro stakes online. Online has always been more difficult, but great training/prep for live play. Advantages of live, easier tells to spot, you definately remember plays from particular persons instead of looking at a name on a screen, ( at least for me ), It easier to spot bad play because hands so slow to play, & seems like your monster hands tend to get called alot because so many bad players cannot believe you have it.
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pushit
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8
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i cant stand live cash games though...
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pushit
i cant stand live cash games though...
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this is the big problem for lots of ppl. I really enjoy taking their money when they feel bored and lose discipline. You will often end up with profits as long as you know how to destroy these juicy games.
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super thanks you very much !
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fusionjj
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dutch96
Ive been playing live 400 nl now for about 8 months now as well as micro stakes online. Online has always been more difficult, but great training/prep for live play. Advantages of live, easier tells to spot, you definately remember plays from particular persons instead of looking at a name on a screen, ( at least for me ), It easier to spot bad play because hands so slow to play, & seems like your monster hands tend to get called alot because so many bad players cannot believe you have it.
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I agree. My results online have been middling to say the least. I play live 2 or 3 times a week in either a private game or over the state line in a casino. I do much better live because I am able to read most people most of the time as well as make more of a "presence" of myself I think.
I walked from our weekly game last tuesday with more than $1700. IT is full of guys with lots of money but not a lot of time to learn to play better.
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gn2056
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Long Beach, California
Posts: 36
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I have always done way better at live too, players arent as lucky and stupid usually. Also, when i am running bad i loosen my fly and put my balls on the felt, usually helps me turn things around.
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I would rather have a bottle in front of me then a frontal labotomy
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Galiana
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 20
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I think its obvious,Atleast..in real life u have way more of factors than playing online poker for poker players..i mean watching others players faces..how they bet..some tics.
When u play online poker,the game is faster,and the only way u can detect a bluff is by how he has bet,or intuition,u cant see their eyes,or faces ...I prefer to play real poker,it gives me better feelings than the online one..but sometimes,i have no the chance to play irl poker..so i have to play the online one.
Besaid,For some divine reason,i get way more badbeats at online poker than irl one.
Thanks for your attentions guys!
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fusionjj
I agree. My results online have been middling to say the least. I play live 2 or 3 times a week in either a private game or over the state line in a casino. I do much better live because I am able to read most people most of the time as well as make more of a "presence" of myself I think.
I walked from our weekly game last tuesday with more than $1700. IT is full of guys with lots of money but not a lot of time to learn to play better.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galiana
For some divine reason,i get way more badbeats at online poker than irl one.
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UnknownFlush
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 13
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I'm have been playing Live Poker but it was a home game with friends, never tried cash game with friends yet since I'm lazy and doesn't want to play cash game but that was in the past, for now I would like to try some cash game, tournament and sngs is fun since you playing with a lot of chips.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galiana
I think its obvious,Atleast..in real life u have way more of factors than playing online poker for poker players..i mean watching others players faces..how they bet..some tics.
When u play online poker,the game is faster,and the only way u can detect a bluff is by how he has bet,or intuition,u cant see their eyes,or faces ...I prefer to play real poker,it gives me better feelings than the online one..but sometimes,i have no the chance to play irl poker..so i have to play the online one.
Besaid,For some divine reason,i get way more badbeats at online poker than irl one.
Thanks for your attentions guys!
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Seeing their eyes and faces isn't meaningless, but it's highly overrated. Most of the tells that good live poker players use are betting pattern tells, just like you use online.
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UnknownFlush
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 13
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Agreed with you, read your opponent emotions and learn his playstyle then you can knock out the opponent. I'm always thinking like this when I play Live Poker.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galiana
I think its obvious,Atleast..in real life u have way more of factors than playing online poker for poker players..i mean watching others players faces..how they bet..some tics.
When u play online poker,the game is faster,and the only way u can detect a bluff is by how he has bet,or intuition,u cant see their eyes,or faces ...I prefer to play real poker,it gives me better feelings than the online one..but sometimes,i have no the chance to play irl poker..so i have to play the online one.
Besaid,For some divine reason,i get way more badbeats at online poker than irl one.
Thanks for your attentions guys!
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Seeing their eyes and faces isn't meaningless, but it's highly overrated. Most of the tells that good live poker players use are betting pattern tells, just like you use online. |
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fusionjj
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fusionjj
I agree. My results online have been middling to say the least. I play live 2 or 3 times a week in either a private game or over the state line in a casino. I do much better live because I am able to read most people most of the time as well as make more of a "presence" of myself I think.
I walked from our weekly game last tuesday with more than $1700. IT is full of guys with lots of money but not a lot of time to learn to play better.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galiana
For some divine reason,i get way more badbeats at online poker than irl one.
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melinda1978
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 50
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i play live more often than online and i have to say that it's just as hard and luck still plays a factor, i like it better because if you know how to read people well you can help yourself.I dont play thinking too much about being a pro more of just having fun, anyways my point is that live has as many bad beats as online. it actually hurts more because you have to keep your cool and emotions in check lol
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Crusher10
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 55
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
/agree with everything LawDude said.
However, there are some very particular details about how people loosen up that are important to keep track of.
One important adjustment is that I probably only steal from the Button with the top ~40% of hands in a live game and I open for 4x instead of my online opener of 3x because I know most of my profit from this raise is comming from post-flop.
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Yes and because in live games people tend to call you faster when they are in sb/bb.
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adam.poker
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: US
Posts: 18
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live games....
oh god but royal you made a brilliant effort
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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i can't stand live as a way of making money. 40 hands/hr is not for me
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,460
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F live poker. Can't fucking adjust to getting 30 hands/h and thus i start spewing about 45 mins in.
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"the world def needs more bikeses"
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bbickes
F live poker. Can't fucking adjust to getting 30 hands/h and thus i start spewing about 45 mins in.
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This is a huge leak I often double up my already big stack in the last two hours at casino cuz ppl was so tired and spewed like you said.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Yeah, the most profitable time is the last couple hours where people are fatiguing and trying to make up past losses.
PS - still rockin 1-2 and some success at 2-5.
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