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Maverick
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04-06-2005, 04:35 AM
Post subject: This guy was playing the table
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 82
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I just got schooled by a player but I really didn't mind. It opened my eyes to his style of play.
Regardless of what the flop was he would do a standard raise of 5xBB. I was watching him and thought he couldn't possibly have good hands everytime.
So I paired aces on the flop and threw his aggression back at him and won with the aces.
He went on to bet hard at a potential flopped royal flush on the board, he got taken to showdown and flipped over 6,8 of a different suit!
So later I was in a hand with him again, I paired my ace on flop again and he did the usual 5xBB. So I started giving him heat again, I think I got a bit tilty of his style as I put him all-in and he flipped over bottom 2 pair to take me down. 
I was heated obviously, but that style of play seemed to make me want to challenge him. He lost a few small pots but when he dragged one...it was big.
Was he just a betting fiend or is this legitamate style of play? 
I tried it out after I left his table and won a similar amount to what I had just lost...it seems rather effective.
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Cawchy
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 36
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Gus Henson and Hon Le are excellent professional examples of this style. From watching them and a very agressive player at my home games when this works... it works very well. But when it doesn't work (get called often) then you are dead. Whether this works or not has a lot to do based on the table you are at, and of course, your luck.
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Maverick
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 82
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Yes good point, whilst I saw him tearing up the table. 10 minutes later he could be getting called down by everyone.
Still its effective at making people put their chips on the line if they want to win the hand. I found it would make people hesitant with marginal hands.
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Cawchy
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 36
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If nothing else, you can just sit back and take in the reads your getting from other players folding to this agressive guy. But I wouldn't try it until you have practaced a a home game or low stakes.
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richardwe
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 43
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It really depends on the table, I think the guy is very well picking out the right table to play his style.
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The winner always wins
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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I deal to a guy that plays like this. He plays total garbage hands, raises at least half the time if it isn't raised to him. He live straddles the blinds, does everything he can to stimulate action.
I guess you could call it "creating an action atmosphere"...he openly acknowledges that he plays a lot of garbage and usually has nothing. He gets played back at a lot, and usually very heavy. You end up seeing his opps overbetting the pot alot. He seems to make small mistakes all over the place, but somehow never gets caught making the big mistake. He always buys in big enough to have everyone at the table covered.
I don't think this works quite as well online because you aren't able to get the reads you can live. The gambling mood this creates at the table is fascinating. Watching someone single handedly control a 10 player ring is great stuff to watch from the dealer box.
Quote:
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Was he just a betting fiend or is this legitamate style of play?
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I think it is legitimate, provided you can pull it all off. You have to have the dynamic personality and game to get the other players in the right mood. You have to have a lot of chips. Most important - you have to be able to make the right read when it comes time to put all the chips in the middle. I don't think many people are capable of this type of artistry.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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You can pull this off at a NoLimit game, because pre-flop mistakes aren't punished so harshly if the game is pre-flop passive and you have a big enough post-flop skill edge.
However, I eat guys like this for lunch in a limit game.
1) Get position on him (change seats, change games, whatever). Without position you can beat him, but won't be able to DESTROY him.
2) Isolate him with hands that can win unimproved.
3) Take him to showdown like 90% of the time. Only fold if it's hopeless.
4) Value bet/raise him when you hit. DO NOT BLUFF HIM. Check/call unless you have a hand.
Inevitably he will go broke or start to behave. Sometimes these guys will tilt when they figure out what you're doing to him and will dump money. Sometimes they'll wise up and you'll be back to playing poker. However, he simply can not over-come the 1-2 punch of stronger starting hands and position no matter how well he plays post-flop. You've pretty much taken away his folding equity.
In a No-Limit game one of the simplest counter-strategies is to buy-in short.
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storm75m
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You can pull this off at a NoLimit game, because pre-flop mistakes aren't punished so harshly if the game is pre-flop passive and you have a big enough post-flop skill edge.
However, I eat guys like this for lunch in a limit game.
1) Get position on him (change seats, change games, whatever). Without position you can beat him, but won't be able to DESTROY him.
2) Isolate him with hands that can win unimproved.
3) Take him to showdown like 90% of the time. Only fold if it's hopeless.
4) Value bet/raise him when you hit. DO NOT BLUFF HIM. Check/call unless you have a hand.
Inevitably he will go broke or start to behave. Sometimes these guys will tilt when they figure out what you're doing to him and will dump money. Sometimes they'll wise up and you'll be back to playing poker. However, he simply can not over-come the 1-2 punch of stronger starting hands and position no matter how well he plays post-flop. You've pretty much taken away his folding equity.
In a No-Limit game one of the simplest counter-strategies is to buy-in short.
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Amen. Players like these can be a good payday. But you MUST have position, and play tightly, no matter what everyone else is doing. You can also gain an edge agaist the other players also, because they may be playing more tentatively as well. Wait for the cards, never bluff, and catch him with some tricky play.
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
and play tightly... Wait for the cards
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Not really.
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storm75m
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
and play tightly... Wait for the cards
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Not really. |
Guess it depends on your testicular fortitude... I thought you said not to bluff?
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by storm75m
I thought you said not to bluff?
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Calling him down with A8 sooted unimproved on most boards is neither tight nor bluffing.
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Cawchy
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 36
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I just got harrinton on hold'em and it seems like this guy matches his description of a super agressive player.
He gets a lot of small pots and the odd big one when he really has a hand. When he plays like this you really have no idea what he has in his hole cards.
Harrington suggests just wait for your hand and take him for all he's worth (sounds easy :P)
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Oh, make a good hand then get the other guy to give you all his chips when you make it. Why didn't I think of that?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
Oh, make a good hand then get the other guy to give you all his chips when you make it. Why didn't I think of that?
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If the other guy is any good, it won't work often enough.
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Cawchy
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 36
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To expand on my previous statment, Harrington recommends two tips for playing with aggressive players.
1. The Hammer
-Basicly come over the top of the aggressor with a large raise.
2. The Rope-a-Dope
- Simply call the aggressor's bets when you truely do have a good hand. Make him think that you have a drawing hand so he thinks that he is stringing you along. Make only one raise, at the end.
The situation has to be right for both of those to work and that only comes with playing.
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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Lately, I've been adopting this style, if only for the fact that I found the loosest, most passive table ever that would not hit ANYTHING, except when I hit something better. 
But last night, it definitely bit me in the ass. Make sure to know your table texture if you try this out. People starting calling me with with middle pair, no kicker... 
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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Harrington is a genius.. and his techniques he writes about in his book are spot on.
rope a dope works the best in this situation.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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I thought The Hammer was used for when you have a good hand that can easily be outdrawn (like TPTK), but Rope-a-Dope was for when you had a monster.
I played with one of these guys this weekend. It was amazing how much he changed the energy of the table. He built $100 into $600 in about an hour. Then he met me in a hand and then another tight player in a hand and he was back to about $100. Eventually, he had to rebuy and lost that, too.
So how do you follow this strategy without over-extending yourself?
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
I thought The Hammer was used for when you have a good hand that can easily be outdrawn (like TPTK), but Rope-a-Dope was for when you had a monster.
I played with one of these guys this weekend. It was amazing how much he changed the energy of the table. He built $100 into $600 in about an hour. Then he met me in a hand and then another tight player in a hand and he was back to about $100. Eventually, he had to rebuy and lost that, too.
So how do you follow this strategy without over-extending yourself?
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You have to REALLY notice when people are catching on and trying to trap you. At that point, change gears, and become really tight aggressive, maybe even tight passive. Unfortunately, it's a fine art to know when this point is, and lots of people, myself included, will lose their winnings + more when this happens.
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DoGGz
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You will know pretty quick. You will be getting checkraised, you will be getting slowplayed, Players will be superaggro back at you.
This is the whole point, you want them to go tilty on you. Now you just have to slow down, play more drawing hands. Still make some plays, but not as many as they will be less effective, but you don't want the action to slow on you. When you hit your 2p, set, staight (not so much on the flushes) you will get payed off huge. Bonus points if you showdown a monster with rags!
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Originally Posted by ensign_lee
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
I thought The Hammer was used for when you have a good hand that can easily be outdrawn (like TPTK), but Rope-a-Dope was for when you had a monster.
I played with one of these guys this weekend. It was amazing how much he changed the energy of the table. He built $100 into $600 in about an hour. Then he met me in a hand and then another tight player in a hand and he was back to about $100. Eventually, he had to rebuy and lost that, too.
So how do you follow this strategy without over-extending yourself?
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You have to REALLY notice when people are catching on and trying to trap you. At that point, change gears, and become really tight aggressive, maybe even tight passive. Unfortunately, it's a fine art to know when this point is, and lots of people, myself included, will lose their winnings + more when this happens. |
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doggz
You will know pretty quick. You will be getting checkraised, you will be getting slowplayed, Players will be superaggro back at you.
This is the whole point, you want them to go tilty on you. Now you just have to slow down, play more drawing hands. Still make some plays, but not as many as they will be less effective, but you don't want the action to slow on you. When you hit your 2p, set, staight (not so much on the flushes) you will get payed off huge. Bonus points if you showdown a monster with rags!
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My personal favorite is 2s full of Jacks. No one sees that coming! 
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RERAISE5823
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 14
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doggz
You will know pretty quick. You will be getting checkraised, you will be getting slowplayed, Players will be superaggro back at you.
This is the whole point, you want them to go tilty on you. Now you just have to slow down, play more drawing hands. Still make some plays, but not as many as they will be less effective, but you don't want the action to slow on you. When you hit your 2p, set, staight (not so much on the flushes) you will get payed off huge. Bonus points if you showdown a monster with rags!
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My personal favorite is 2s full of Jacks. No one sees that coming! |
2s full of Jacks, are you poking fun at me?
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RERAISE5823
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zangief
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doggz
You will know pretty quick. You will be getting checkraised, you will be getting slowplayed, Players will be superaggro back at you.
This is the whole point, you want them to go tilty on you. Now you just have to slow down, play more drawing hands. Still make some plays, but not as many as they will be less effective, but you don't want the action to slow on you. When you hit your 2p, set, staight (not so much on the flushes) you will get payed off huge. Bonus points if you showdown a monster with rags!
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My personal favorite is 2s full of Jacks. No one sees that coming! |
2s full of Jacks, are you poking fun at me? |
No, although I knew you had it playing at Foxwoods once. I had it playing like a nut online once, too. It's just a gorgeous hand.
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