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Getting Busted w/ top two pair

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JoeHaw

03-15-2009, 04:09 AM Post subject: Getting Busted w/ top two pair

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

Home cash game at a 5 dollar buy in. Down to three guys out of 5 to start with. I've been playing pretty Tight Agressive, was folding a lot of garbage pre-flop and valuebetting every good hand. Donk is completely new to the game, he'll check with the nuts and go all in with bottom pair. He limps into every hand. Villain is relatively loose, not really a donk, but hes not real tricky. I wouldn't say he's passive, but he definetly is a calling station. If he opens a pot its for 4x the BB tops.

$5 NL blinds have moved up to .5/.10 cause it was a long game.
Button: Villain ($13.10)
SB: Hero ($10.00)
BB: Donk ($1.90)

(Apprx.)

Preflop: I get dealt Kd,Qh. Villain calls .10, Hero Bets .50. BB folds, Villain Calls.

Flop: Kh 6c Qd
Hero bets .50, Villain calls.

Turn: 9s
Hero bets 2.50
Villain raises to 2.70 (its a home cash game, we should probably settle upon a raising rule)
Hero pushes AI.
Villain Calls

He flips Js10c, the only hand I was worried about. Im thinking maybe I gave him WAY too good of odds on the flop for his straight draw, but I didn't exactly want him to fold. Should I maybe have bet more on the flop?

Im new to the game, if you didn't notice, so I'll happily accept any criticism.

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Fnord

03-15-2009, 04:18 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Bet more on the flop.

Otherwise the hand is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LuckySlevin

03-15-2009, 04:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: Live Poker Room

Posts: 1,050

LuckySlevin is an unknown quantity at this point

Two things here, well three actually. Please don't post the result that will skew your answers... that being said: -

The call on the flop should slow you down, the board has a potential straight draw and he simply calls the flop, this smacks of him sign posting you the fact that he's chasing some kind of draw. with TPTK he would not be calling this flop, if he has any clue what he's doing he would bet it to protect his hand. So I think you have to put him on a set that he's slowplaying here, Some mediocre hand he doesn't beleive you beat, or the straight chase. The next card is a 9, that hits his range very heavily. He min raises you, you have to ask yourself what is he doing this with, does he want to force you off a hand? No. Surely he would bet more if he did.

The problem you made with your AI, is you've stacked off here against a villian who has suddenly showed aggresion on the Turn after cold calling your flop bet. The turn completes straights. The only hand that will call you here is a hand that has you dominated. This is the problem with your AI here. You gain nothing because you are folding worse hands out of the pot, and trying to effectively bluff a very strong line (poor turn bet sizing on the turn aside) off their hand. The flop call, turn bet, screams I have a straight.

This is a prime example of flop texture. Top two pair is usually a good hand, on a board like this with this line, it's not. One of the biggest problems that weak players have is they are so predicatable, they don't disguise their hands. Unless you have a good reason to believe otherwise, give the guy credit for the straight here. In this particular example he called with poor odds, the only way the hand is profitable is if he can guarantee stacking you if he hits it, don't give him that opportunity again!

What are you trying to achieve by your all in? If you're trying to bluff at the straight this is a terribe board to do it at giving his actions on the flop and turn (usually when they wake up on the turn completed straight they have a hand) AI unless the line is particulary weak or unless you have the absolute nuts and are getting a weaker player to call you with second best hand, is a play that will cost you a lot of money in the future.

So... lessons to learn are 1. Always range your villains, what do you think he has? Do you have reason to believe he's bluffing? Because the only hand you're folding here, is a bluff.

2. Watch out for a villian that suddenly wakes up. Why did he call your flop bet, and donk lead on the turn? What does this tell you about his hand?

JoeHaw

03-15-2009, 04:37 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

Thanks for the insights, I guess that makes sense.

I had put him on a range, it's just that the range was really big, ranging from 89o to AKs. The problem is, he probably would've called even if he had connected with the King or Queen with top kicker. He probably would've called with pocket tens and lower, he probably would've even called with pocket rockets. I wasn't trying to bluff, I was really value betting because I figured he had some kind of hand made that was worse than mine but that he might consider good.

I guess the minraise was a sure sign though, the AI I justified by thinking he thought that I was just trying to steal the pot with maybe a small pocket pair or something. I really didn't want to see a Jack or Ace hit on the river anyways, and I was ready to take a good 6 bucks.

I know you're right, its just really frustrating to put this callingstation on a good hand when I know his range is so vast.

Could I do it again, I guess I probably would've bet the pot on the flop, just called the measly 20 cents to see the river and c/c, c/f the river unless a K or Q hit. Does that sound better?

LuckySlevin

03-15-2009, 04:57 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: Live Poker Room

Posts: 1,050

I think so yes, - personally I'd be re-raising his donk turn bet, if he had bet a decent amount then I would be calling the turn, check folding to a sizeable bet on the river. If he does some idiotic min raise again on the river then obviously call that. Just my thoughts though, I'm sure you'll get some more soon! You were a little unlucky, but as Fnord said if you'd bet the flop a decent amount (say 75-90%) you may well have took the pot down then.

GL!

Fnord

03-15-2009, 07:17 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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LoL, he's never folding. Just makes it a smaller mistake when he sucks out on you and you pay off the max.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

JoeHaw

03-15-2009, 03:46 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

I was thinking, since he is a calling station, should I maybe be controlling the pot a bit more when the scare card hits?

Could I maybe check to him on the turn to see where he stands? I just feel like

1. He would be checking behind me because he's a bit of a donk and would think maybe I'd be getting scared away from a reasonable bet ( I had been caught c-betting a couple times, which I now realize is a terrible idea against these types of players).

2. I still wouldn't know what to do on the river if he did indeed check with the nuts, I don't think I could really check my KQ to him if he didn't have anything.

3. I really SHOULD be value betting if there's only one hand he has that'll beat me. I also still have four outs if he does have the nuts.

I'm thinking if I had position on him this hand everything would be much, much, easier- because he's not so stupid that he wouldn't bet on the river with the nuts, but then I could see exactly how much his hand is worth to him.

This is more of a post to myself than anything now that I look at it- I'm just trying to make sure I was in the right since this was so frustrating lol. I wasn't folding that hand, its really hard for me to consider pot control with such a sick hand.

I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
-Thomas Jefferson

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
-Thomas Edison

Fnord

03-15-2009, 06:47 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

LoL, don't pot control here. Play a big pot, try to get more in when you're good and he'll draw at the wrong price.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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