|
pokerfan
|
04-18-2009, 08:04 PM
Post subject: Easy call after a donk shoved on two tone flop?
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
|
|
1-2 NL live 6 way limped pot. Effective stack was $240. OP was a loose old guy who seemed to peel the flop a lot , bet weak & strong drawing hands aggressively and overvalue TP hands also . 4 limpers, checked to sb and hero completed with :Kd: :Td:. BB(OP) checked.
flop : :Jc:   hero checked, BB bet $8, everyone folded, hero thought a while and c/r up to $30, BB insta shoved his rest stack,
hero ??
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Holy shit this hand is misplayed.
First, I would lead the flop because check/raising with so much money behind and so little in the pot is suicide. Someone with a set will probably price you in anyway because live players suck at bet sizing and balance.
Fail that, just call his bet because I can't think of a hand someone who over-values top pair is folding to a check/raise.
Fail that, laugh and fold to the shove.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
Isn't our equity good enough vs AA for a call here?
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
pokerfan
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Holy shit this hand is misplayed.
First, I would lead the flop because check/raising with so much money behind and so little in the pot is suicide. Someone with a set will probably price you in anyway because live players suck at bet sizing and balance.
Fail that, just call his bet because I can't think of a hand someone who over-values top pair is folding to a check/raise.
Fail that, laugh and fold to the shove.
|
i dont like c/r in this spot either. I just laid back and watched these guys fight against each other last night. The funny thing is that K high took down an all-in pot without worrying too much on Jc 9d 3d 9c Jh board.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Isn't our equity good enough vs AA for a call here?
|
Why are we flipping coins with no money in the center. While that's a mindset we can take too far, I think we need to find spots in live poker to give us an oportunity to make better decisions than our opponents who play sooo poorly and spew information.
Starting with ZOMG BIG DRAW and lots of money behind.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Isn't our equity good enough vs AA for a call here?
|
Why are we flipping coins with no money in the center. While that's a mindset we can take too far, I think we need to find spots in live poker to give us an oportunity to make better decisions than our opponents who play sooo poorly and spew information.
Starting with ZOMG BIG DRAW and lots of money behind. |
I see why you would want to save your chips for higher equity spots vs bad players, but you are still making a mistake by folding. It shouldn't matter how good or how bad your opponents are so long as the price is right.
Push all edges if pushing the edge is a profitable one long term. What are we gaining by giving bad players our good equity? An opportunity to get it back later? This isn't clear to me.
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
LoL, we're certainly not folding.
What I'm saying is that against terribad live players I think it's often correct to pass on smaller edges to give yourself a chance to play for bigger edges in a built pot on a later street.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
I could see doing that in a tournament but I can't think of any examples in a cash game.
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
I could see doing that in a tournament but I can't think of any examples in a cash game.
|
Tourney lines will sometimes trade +chip EV for immediate value or reduced risk so you can live to play another hand. Small ball poker, under-betting the pot, checking for pot control, shoving over an obvious draw with a set instead of just value betting, gap theory, etc.
This isn't about that. This is about trading a marginal or small edge on an early street for a chance to get a bigger edge, induce a catastrophic error or make a great play on the next street (often for high effective stakes if the pot has already been built but we have at least two bets behind.) In live poker I think these spots occur at least a couple times per session.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
So, confirm this for me: You think this is a call as played, but horribly played because we can gain more from bigger mistakes on later streets.
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
pokerfan
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
So, confirm this for me: You think this is a call as played, but horribly played because we can gain more from bigger mistakes on later streets.
|
he said its a clear fold as played but if we bet and got raised, then we just call instead of shoving on this small pot with much money behind.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pokerfan
he said its a clear fold as played
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
LoL, we're certainly not folding.
|
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
So, confirm this for me: You think this is a call as played, but horribly played because we can gain more from bigger mistakes on later streets.
|
My line here is to bet out and then react to a raise based on the size of the raise, his play style and body language. With lots of money behind and not much of a pot I'm more inclined to call the raise to give my opponent a chance to misplay future streets rather than making a marginal shove.
Check/raising here makes it difficult to make good decisions later in the hand and will at best pick off a small bet into a nothing pot. Your hole cards also start to look like Wells Fargo stock if the flop checks through and the turn blanks.
Call or fold to the shove whatever. Put some numbers into poker stove then feel good about whatever you do and go jerk yourself off. The problem here is that we failed to play the hand in a way that gives our opponent maximum opportunity to misplay his hand.
|
|
|
|
GahGah604
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
|
|
I like betting my flush draws too, it hides our hand and makes it easier to react what he does on later streets. then if you hit your flush, you can angle a bit too  he might put all his money in with a set or two pair
|
|
|
|
Mark Jones
|
|
05-08-2009, 07:46 PM
Post subject: Re: Easy call after a donk shoved on two tone flop?
|
#15 (permalink)
|
|
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pokerfan
1-2 NL live 6 way limped pot. Effective stack was $240. OP was a loose old guy who seemed to peel the flop a lot , bet weak & strong drawing hands aggressively and overvalue TP hands also . 4 limpers, checked to sb and hero completed with :Kd: :Td:. BB(OP) checked.
flop : :Jc: hero checked, BB bet $8, everyone folded, hero thought a while and c/r up to $30, BB insta shoved his rest stack,
hero ?? |
awesome post man great work out
|
|
|
|
LawDude
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
|
|
There was a hand exactly like this on High Stakes Poker. I believe the player called the shove with the 2 overcards and the flush draw, and found out that the shover had a set.
|
|
|
|
sim92
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
|
|
These difficult situations are very interesting to look in my opinion. I'd say that you put yourself in a very difficult situation here and with such a small pot you don't want a coinflip situation. If you think that those guys are easy to read and will put their money in with anything you should wait for a better spot. Remember that tournament is all about patience and stamina .
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
06-02-2012, 08:10 PM Merge Network 6.0 Looks to Retain Current Player Base
Linear Mode
