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dev
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08-14-2008, 09:06 PM
Post subject: donater equity in a home game
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Hypothetical situation:
You're in a home game, there's 5 players. One is a total donater who will never win, the other 3 have comparable skills to yours. That donater's stack will be gone by the end of the night.
true or false:
You're in a pot and donater moves in. If you're getting slightly -EV odds to call, you should call anyway. Equity-wise, 1/4 of his stack is yours anyway.
p.s. in this case, donater just seems to make more sense than donor.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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wat
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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BankItDrew
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08-14-2008, 10:11 PM
Post subject: Re: donater equity in a home game
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#3 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
If you're getting slightly -EV odds to call
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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If you are sitting in a home game with guys who have "comparable skills to yours" then you are terrible at poker and should call because you have no chance of winning chips otherwise.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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pay attention class, there's still one fish.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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BankItDrew
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08-14-2008, 11:06 PM
Post subject: Re: donater equity in a home game
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#6 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
If you're getting slightly -EV odds to call
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
If you're getting slightly -EV odds to call
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By -EV odds to call I'm talking about pot odds and implied odds. The point here is that if you consider the game itself, a play that would otherwise be -EV might be +EV.
Ok, maybe you guys don't understand the dynamics of home games where the players aren't all internet players. There are donaters, players who will go broke week after week. There are decent players, who generally learn to stay away from each other. If a player in the game is going broke 90% of the time, then in terms of equity, 90% of that players stack belongs to the other players in the game.
NB: I know I'm not all that well known here. I know my post count isn't in the thousands. Despite these character flaws, I posted a topic for discussion. Please at least think about the problem before replying with NC garbage.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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I gambol all day
1) the money is insignificant
2) last thing you want is for people to tighten up (it's actually happened to me)
3) IT'S A FUCKING HOME GAME, HAVE FUN
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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The home games I'm talking about are 1/2+ and play pretty big. At one point I was making a living off of them. To me it's important to get the max out of them if there's other good players in the game, because it wont support all of you for long. They die out quick. So yeah, we're not talking about a 'fun game'.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I'll entertain the question.
Let's assume that any money you give villain as the result of an all-in situation will be split evenly between the other four players in the game including yourself. Then you have 25% "donater equity".
Suppose you're putting in $100 with only 33.33% equity, and you expect to receive 25% of any money that villain has in his stack at any given time.
Your equity from the immediate investment is: (0.3333 * 100) - (0.6667 * 100) = -$33.34
Your equity from getting back your $100 is: 0.6667 * 0.25 * 100 = $16.67
This still has a negative EV, so let's look at the general case involving putting in $100 where x is your equity when the money goes in. Your equity becomes:
0 = (x * 100) - ((1-x)*100) + (1-x)(0.25)(100)
0 = 100x - 100 + 100x + 25 - 25x
0 = 175x -75
75/175 = x = 0.4285
So if you could get the money in with more than 42.85% equity assuming your "donater equity" is real, then you'll make a profit.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
By -EV odds to call I'm talking about pot odds and implied odds. The point here is that if you consider the game itself, a play that would otherwise be -EV might be +EV.
Ok, maybe you guys don't understand the dynamics of home games where the players aren't all internet players. There are donaters, players who will go broke week after week. There are decent players, who generally learn to stay away from each other. If a player in the game is going broke 90% of the time, then in terms of equity, 90% of that players stack belongs to the other players in the game.
NB: I know I'm not all that well known here. I know my post count isn't in the thousands. Despite these character flaws, I posted a topic for discussion. Please at least think about the problem before replying with NC garbage.
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I play home games every Sunday, sometimes Friday's.
You did not mention character flaws, so don't worry about that.
I was just trying to be simple, as -EV will always be -EV.
Thank Jesus Christ for spoonitnow's math head.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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is this a question about game preservation? i.e., sometimes you intentionally call thin against a whale so he gets the illusion that he can beat the game and keeps coming back in the future. in the long run, such -EV plays can be +EV because of "implied game odds."
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krimson
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 108
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It makes no difference. What you're saying is that 1/4 of any money you lose to him will come back to you, but 1/4 of any money you win from him was already yours. Thus the EV of any play you make against him heads-up is scaled down by 3/4, but this will not change negative EV to positive EV. (spoonitnow's calculation ignores that folding has EV = + pot/4)
Whether gambling it up is a better way to make him to keep donating than to fold and let him have the pot is another question.
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