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Sociologist

07-07-2004, 06:06 PM Post subject: Developmental Poker Skills

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 1

Developmental Theory of Poker Skills is a theory I'm working on to help the average "book smart" player advance to expert levels.

A given foundation to become an expert is to constantly re-evaluate and introspect on what can be done to improve play. What went wrong? What went right? It is this foundation that will help the player become a situational expert, one who can adapt play perfectly given the other players and type of game being played to maximize profit while minimizing losses.

Another mind-set necessary is to become an expert is to gain a complex full picture of player types. The traditional maniac, chaser, calling station, and shark labels are inadequate for becoming a situational expert. Below is my attempt to characterize player types into 6 categories more comprehensively than these one-word labels.

I believe that players often develop through these stages of skills, and once a certain level is reached, players rarely reverse. However, there are these transitional periods, when a player is "in-between" stages and therefore can exhibit characteristics of earlier stages. Basically, there's a point in time when you graduate from being a good beginner player to a bad intermediate player, or from a good intermediate player to a bad expert player. I believe that we can get stuck in these transitional stages or not develop into the next stages as a result of these transition. These look like slumps but are really transition stages. It is important to recognize the transition and press on to develop as an expert player, rather than just staying a top intermediate player.

A third aspect of the expert is mastery of the pot odds and betting odds, I mean knowing them inside and out. The mark of an expert, however, is not being bound to them but adjusting accordingly to make profit at that table.

Lastly, a major characteristic of the expert is that he doesn't mind losing in the short-run to make a larger profit. He makes calculated investments and has no fear that he will be able to get it back easily. Losses and bad beats do not phase him because of the confidence he has in his skill.

Beginner A
Pre-flop strategy - None: will limp/call pre-flop with many hands, wants to play
Understanding of Position - None: no concept of position
Understanding of Odds - Minimal: Thinks 8 outs is a just a little better than 2 outs
What they Chase - Everything to the river: lows pairs, high pairs, sets, hands
Playing Cards or Player - Plays cards only
Player Analysis - Nascent: only early stages of "maniac" sensitivity
Advanced Strategies - Incidental: will semi-bluff drawing hands
Bets for Information - None: Bets and raises on strength of hand only
Bluffing to Steal - None: Does not bluff at all
Being Bluffed - Unpredictable: Not enough knowledge of the game to be bluffed. Generally will not call bluffs, but will call "maniac" bluffs once in a blue moon.
Folding - Tough: calls medium bets all of the time
Weaknesses - No short stack game

Beginner B
Pre-flop strategy - Early: plays 85% of cards (any suited, connected, Ax); mostly limps/calls and raises w/ medium-high cards, folds worst hands like 72o; just wants to play
Understanding of Position - None: still no concept of position
Understanding of Odds - Early Pot odds formation for drawing hands (will call big-bets on a feeling)
What they Chase - Top pair w/o kicker, any monster possibility
Playing Cards or Player - Plays cards aggressively on passive table: bets big with middle pair
Player Analysis - Early: sees people in categories of good/bad or aggressive/passive
Advanced Strategies - Early: slow plays monster hands and starting cards
Bets for Information - None: Bets and raises on strength of hand mostly
Bluffing to Steal - Tries to steal pots in passive table - can be seen as "maniac"
Being Bluffed - Unpredictable: Not enough knowledge of the game to be bluffed.
Folding - Tough: will fold all-in bets to tight players when he has nothing
Weaknesses - Gets married to hands, hates "maniacs"

Intermediate A
Pre-flop strategy - Improved: Similar to Beginner B but folds more cards, plays less suited and less connectors, raises on higher value cards only
Understanding of Position - Good: Stable concept of position but minimal impact on game play
Understanding of Odds - Stable: Tries all pot odds strategy, but doesn't execute precisely
What they Chase - Will mostly chase for the Nut hand
Playing Cards or Player - Plays the cards only
Player Analysis - Develops categories of maniac, chaser, rock, calling station
Advanced Strategies - Most: semi-bluff, check-raise, slow play, free card, pot steal, kicker
Bets for Information - Bets w/ good hands, middle pair/top pair low kicker
Bluffing to Steal - Will try when opportunity is right
Being Bluffed - Can be bluffed by large pot odds margin
Folding - folds missed flops, calls to show down w/ 2 pair or better, can fold top pair w/ no kicker
Weaknesses - hates chasers, hates losing, gets pot committed

Intermediate B
Pre-flop strategy - By the book: Very tight, only Sklanskys 6 groups
Understanding of Position - Solid: Strong concept of position, affects decisions
Understanding of Odds - Strong: Tries all pot odds strategy, executes precisely
What they Chase - Will chase for the Nut hand, when the odds justify
Playing Cards or Player - Plays the cards and player (emphasis on cards)
Player Analysis - Strong developed categories: can detect maniacs, chasers, and beginners with ease
Advanced Strategies - Most: semi-bluff, check-raise, slow play, free card, pot steal, kicker, hates to slow play good hole cards
Bets for Information - All of the time - always betting and raising, never just calling
Bluffing to Steal - Ulterior motive: will try when opportunity is right, but doesn't care because of he can build loose table image.
Being Bluffed - Can be bluffed by "tight" players betting big
Folding - folds missed flops, folds to strong hands to re-raises, folds at showdown if thought to be beat
Weaknesses - hates chasers, hates losing, hard to fold AA, KK

Expert A
Pre-flop strategy - Knows the book, but plays looser in loose games; loves bad beat hands (low pocket pair, A5s and lower)
Understanding of Position - Solid: Strong concept of position, affects decisions depending on situation
Understanding of Odds - Mastery: knows them inside out and backwards (says, I'm the 82.3494783 percent favorite to win this hand)
What they Chase - Will buy one more card for the bad beat drawing hand against tight players
Playing Cards or Player - Plays the player: lets other players raise, re-raise and call bluffs; loves chasers, can make them pay
Player Analysis - Advanced and complex: beyond maniacs, chasers, calling station categories, thinks full picture
Advanced Strategies - All and is also comfortable with swings in money (can lose money to make money); traps 2nd best hand
Bets for Information - All of the time - always betting and raising, never just calling - getting maximum information every hand
Bluffing to Steal - Ulterior motive: will try when opportunity is right, but doesn't care because of he can build loose table image
Being Bluffed - Hard to bluff, he just knows when you have it and when you don't
Folding - Doesn't fold when he "knows" you don't have anything
Weaknesses - Can sometimes go down w/ 2nd best hand

Expert B
Pre-flop strategy - Knows the book, but plays looser in loose games; loves bad beat hands (low pocket pair, A5s and lower)
Understanding of Position - Solid: Strong concept of position, affects decisions depending on situation
Understanding of Odds - Mastery: knows them inside out and backwards (says, I'm the 82.3494783 percent favorite to win this hand)
What they Chase - Will buy one more card for the bad beat drawing hand against tight players
Playing Cards or Player - Perfect balance between cards and player playing
Player Analysis - Expert at reading people and cards
Advanced Strategies - All; controls flow of game; years of experience; great instinct; played in all different types of game/skill levels; maximizes profits; minimizes losses
Bets for Information - All of the time - maximizes information every hand; uses information perfectly
Bluffing to Steal - Part of people playing; maximizes profits
Being Bluffed - Hard to bluff, he just knows when you have it and when you don't
Folding - Doesn't fold when he "knows" you don't have anything; folds 2nd best hand to other expert
Weaknesses - Sometimes blind to other expert B at table

Playing a Beginner A
- Increase your pre-flop raise proportionally (Normally raise $2.00 w/ AKs, raise $3.00, raise small hands you normally limp with, limp with cards you normally fold)
- Small bet to the showdown
- Never call an all-in (He either has it, or has beginner's luck)
- When he is short stacked against you, go all-in after the flop
- If he thinks your a maniac, he'll call you once in a while

Playing a Beginner B
- Get position on him
- Increase your pre-flop raise proportionally
- Small bet to the showdown (Can be beat with top pair, or middle pair high kicker)
- Let others call his all-in bluffs if you don't have the nuts
- Slow play might mean monster hand
- Call his all-in pre-flop bet when he is short stacked against you with AQ and better, if no one else does.

Playing an Intermediate A
- Observe pre-flop play for information
- Make him think you are a chaser
- He'll loosen up and try to take you down
- Stop chasing and play a tighter game than he does
- Bet large on made hands (or with many outs for hand)
- Re-raise when he is pot committed will get him all-in
- Re-raise bluff when he is betting for information

Playing an Intermediate B
- Observe pre-flop play for information
- Play looser pre-flop, pay a little more to play bad beat hands
- Vary pre-flop strategy, limp in with QQ and let him see it; keep him guessing
- Re-raise bluff when he is betting for information
- Be a maniac twice, and then play tight
- Be a chaser once to the bad beat hand and take him down
- Be a rock all day, and raise big at show down
- Don't call his "bluffs", they usually aren't
- He's playing pot odds, so bet callable amounts so that he'll put more money in, bet him out of drawing hands
- Fold if that scare card comes along and he was on a draw

Expert A
- Don't get trapped by 2nd best hand
- Don't rely too much on his pre-flop play
- Watch him if he's just calling letting others bet and raise
- Make him pay to see the turn card
- Doesn't bluff that much
- Let him think your a chaser, and out play him straight up
- Can be brought down when he has 2nd best hand if he thinks your loose

Expert B
- Be a better Expert B player

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scgolfer

07-07-2004, 06:15 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 629

Man that is some good stuff. Dont agree with all but pretty dang close. Thanks for the analysis! It will help everyone.

Holy crap I cant play against Yoda!!

jmrogers7

07-07-2004, 06:19 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 1,112

Wow! that is definitely the BEST 1st post I have seen on this board. Very impressive! Great info, Sociologist. A very intreresting read.

"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun

fishstick

07-07-2004, 10:56 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

this is quite good, i appreciate the amount of work that went into this. it's also very well written and organized.

to your listing, i would add the following type of player (and i'm going to steal your format) i seem to see a lot:

The slightly erratic "I'm here to play god dammit and when I don't win it's because the cards suck" Player
Pre-flop strategy - plays way too many hands, is likely (in an SNG) to raise all-in preflop when the blinds are still 10/20 with KQ offsuit
Understanding of Position - questionable - plays more on the perceived strength of his hand rather than his position or action that's taken place before him
Understanding of Odds - zip! they generally cannot be put off of a strong or nut draw with any bet
What they Chase - any straight or flush
Playing Cards or Player - doesn't seem to notice
Advanced Strategies - will play aggressively when they perceive they have the best of it
Bets for Information - nope
Bluffing to Steal - not really - maybe a river all-in on a busted draw
Being Bluffed - nearly impossible to bluff if still drawing
Weaknesses - all of the above

Playing The slightly erratic "I'm here to play god dammit and when I don't win it's because the cards suck" Player
- pressure them preflop/flop when you've got the goods (or think they don't)
- be very careful when giving them a free card as they'll chase a draw to the river without regard for pot odds (if you give them a pass on the flop, and they get closer to the draw on the turn, they'll call whatever you bet on the turn to see the river)
- these are generally the "gamblers" you see "all-ining" in the first couple of rounds of an SNG - use them to double up early if you get a big hand
- keep the pressure on: bet or raise into them constantly
- if they make one of their crazy draws, give them a "nh" (we want to reinforce this behavior)

the reason i thought it worthwhile to create a whole new category was because your listing follows a logical progression (it was fun reading it and saying "yeah - that used to be me", and also saying "hmmm, i need to think more about that."

) for someone trying to improve their game. the "i'm here to play god dammit..." player probably never looks at a hand history or tracks basic statistics (% flops seen).

i think there are a fair number of players out there who just play, without a lot of thought to what went right and what went wrong. if they make their draw on the river, regardless of pot odds, etc, it's because they think they played well. if they miss what they're chasing, it's because they got bad cards.

these are the players that limped in on 93 suited one time from UTG, and hit a big pot with a flush, therefore, "93 suited must be a great hand!"

again, very nice job.

Fnord

07-08-2004, 04:29 PM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I think you're trying to bucket people too much. I tend to look at 3-4 dimensions when evaluating players:

Tight vs Loose (starting hands)
What hands do they play and under what circumstances? Raise pre-flop, and how much with what? (although this gets into aggression)

Aggressive vs Passive
How strongly do they protect hands? Do they min bet stuff like flop misses, monsters and 2nd/3rd pair? Bluff/semi-bluff? Someone that waits for the nuts then comes out firing is considered passive.

Calling vs Folding
What's their calling criteria? Pre-flop? Flop? After the flop? What will they go all-in with? These all can be very different.

Skill level (trickiness)
Are they capable of bluffing? Playing position? Blind defense? Reading other players? etc.

Per casual observation, I find that many of these factors do not strongly correlate to each other. The only correlation I've seen at NL tables is better players tend to be a little more aggressive, in the middle of the call/fold extremes and play tighter. However, there is the rare beast that will play darn near every hand very well.

It's been said that NL is a game of people and position. I find this system works great for putting people on a style of play. If someone has a better system or suggestions for improvement I'd love to hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

vasumi

07-09-2004, 07:29 AM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Slower Lower Delaware

Posts: 18

How about this listing?

#1 Action junkie - Knows how to play good cards, but plays to many hands. Often overbets hands, trys to look like a maniac, but plays a little better. Easy to trap.

#2 Reckless/maniac - Plays almost anything, plays lots of hands, overbets often, shows weak hands in showdown. Limp to them and they are an easy trap.

#3 Passive - will call/limp almost anything, even premium hands. If they call a large bet, they have a hand. Easy to steal from. Afraid to risk the chips.

#4 newbie - inconsistant betting, overbets then underbets, no sense of what other players bets are saying. Lots of mistakes.

#5 ultratight - If he bets, he has premium cards. Very predictable.

#6 loose - plays too many hands. Has a love of playing suited connectors and Ax. Has some understanding of position and pot odds, can play well, but his love of chasing wears him down.

#7 Solid - Plays aggressively when he plays a hand. PLays in the right situations, quick to see the weakness in other players. Turns over strong cards at showdown. Tough to play against.

#8 The mouth - someone who thinks they are better than they are, and talks shit to try to put you on tilt. Just wait for the hand to take them down.

These are fairly new to me, as I was unsatisfied with the classic loose/light aggressive/passive labels.

I use these together to create more combos like solid but passive, or solid but reckless after winning a pot or plays solid but goes reckless when short stacked.

Toasty

07-09-2004, 07:56 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

nice post!

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

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