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Grand_MasterB
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08-02-2005, 04:37 PM
Post subject: Chopping?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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Just wondering if you guys out there Chop when at a casino playing a limit game? I usually do it if the players to my left and right want to. But if i tell them its either every time or never. However i was thinkin about this and i feel that maybe i should chop. I may be leaving some money out there wheni can outplay most players. Also how do you feel about chopping when it gets shorthanded (6 or less)?
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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no matter the circumstance, i always chop the blinds. I had already talked it over with the guy on my left prior to our blinds and he said ok, so when it game around to it folding to my SB, I look at my cards and ask for a chop. He says yes and we flip for fun. He shows T5s and I show QQ and I offered the chop. I do it out of courtesy and avoiding the rake
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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in a casino, it's all about avoiding that damn rake. always chop at low limits. at high limit games where there's a time charge, there's more incentive to steal/defend those blinds.
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call_me_CHEF
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 38
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I always view it as bad Karma not to chop.
I had AA and offered to chop with a guy in 1/2 nl, he didn't want to, we ended up getting all the chips working preflop.
it ended up KK vs AA, and I busted him. All because he was greedy after seeing KK.
just my 2 cents.
-CHEF
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-Put 'em in your mouth and suck 'em
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CBAT
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 831
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I've never been to a casino before, I just turned 18, and I am planning on going to TurningStone casino in NY soon. I was wondering if anyone could explain the meanings of "chop."
I thought chopping a pot was splitting the pot because both players had an identical 5 card hand.
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ManhattanMan
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 40
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Chopping is the practice where everybody folds around to the small blind. The small blind will usually look to the big blind to his left and say, "Chop?" Both players take back their chips (from the blinds) and the next hand begins. Obviously, if someone else calls first, you cannot chop.
Some poker rooms do not allow chopping, so be sure to know the rules. Additionally, chopping is usually not allowed in tournaments.
In a low limit hold'em game, this will almost never happen at a full ring game, since the chances that the first eight players to act will fold is almost zero, since they play so loosely. I've seen it happen several times in 1-2 No Limit games, though.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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I guess I'm an ass. I have never chopped although I have had the opportunity to many times. Some people get pissed, but it is my choice to play my hand if I so choose. I play 1/2 and 2/5 NL and 2/6 or 5/10 LHE. In no limit the implied odds are worth enough to me at least complete my SB or see a flop when I'm in the BB. In low limit hold'em the players tend to be so bad why would I pass up the opportunity to play someone HU? If they don't want to play with me then they can fold. Although I am polite when I say I don't chop, people still tend to get irritated. They will often raise me out of spite regardless of their hand and/or take their hand too far and and up paying me off.
I have taken the time to try and improve my HU game. If you or other people have not, that is your own problem. Is poker not about exploiting an opponents weaknesses? So why does being HU in the blinds change that? Against the average player I feel that being HU in this situation is +EV for me. I have definately won more money playing HU in the blinds than I have lost due to the rake created from not chopping.
Offering to chop in the blinds with AA is ludicrous to me. Like you said, you didn't end up chopping and ended taking your opponents entire stack. You were willing to pass up an opportunity to make money. Hmm... Let me see if I can understand this logic... "Let me fold now and give up a few bucks in rake or play my hand and potentially win hundreds." Nope, I don't understand. Why do you even bother to play poker if you think like this? Is it also impolite to check-raise or slow play?
You're entitled to your opinion about it being "bad karma" not to chop. You can also continue to request a seat change to your lucky seat and make sure not to leave for the casino without wearing your lucky thong.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
In low limit hold'em the players tend to be so bad why would I pass up the opportunity to play someone HU?
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o Rake.
o Slows down the game.
o Makes you stand out as a player and has everyone watching as you play out an entire hand.
Is your edge HU high enough that it's worth playing out the hand vs taking a free ride and moving on? Also, how does playing that out effect the table and their perception of you? Finally, consider that our opponents' favorite mistakes aren't as bad heads-up.
I chop unless it's 5 handed or less. But by then, I'm usually looking for another game. Then again, the biggest live game I've played in is 8/16 with $4 + tip comming out of every pot.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Is your edge HU high enough that it's worth playing out the hand vs taking a free ride and moving on? Also, how does playing that out effect the table and their perception of you? Finally, consider that our opponents' favorite mistakes aren't as bad heads-up.
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I understand what you're saying completely Fnord, and for me it definately is. Refuse to chop with someone and see how they react. It's suprising how many people get genuinely pissed. Some will get the "Fine then. I'll teach you to chop with me next time" attitude and completely overplay their hand. These type of people tend to get cute and try to check-raise or bet and re-raise trying to push me off the pot I "forced" them to play. Mistakes get magnified in this situation. You also get the people that will call you down just to see what type of hand you refused to chop with.
All that is minor compared to the image it gives me, and the way I tend to play live makes it very beneficial in NL. I typically play very tight and somewhat passive and observant opponents see that. I make efforts to diguise that fact. I order a drink as soon as I sit down, I am more vocal when I'm in a pot so it seems like I play more hands than I actually do, etc. Refusing to chop can make someone seem overly aggressive. Stand-offish, aggressive players get more calls than nice, passive people. In NL all you need is one call later to make it all worth while. Again, some people get irritated when you refuse to chop. These are the type of people that also try to "get you back." I'd be thrilled if everyone at the table was gunning for me.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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If that's what works for you. I prefer everyone gamb00l happy and not trying too hard, playing dogshit cards and paying me off just to see. People "gunning for me" are at some level trying to play good poker.
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youngblood
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 36
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i'll always take the option to chop,if they dont want to chop thats alright.....it's going to be 100$ to play the hand if we are playing NL 
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DoGGz
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
I guess I'm an ass. I have never chopped although I have had the opportunity to many times. Some people get pissed, but it is my choice to play my hand if I so choose. I play 1/2 and 2/5 NL and 2/6 or 5/10 LHE. In no limit the implied odds are worth enough to me at least complete my SB or see a flop when I'm in the BB. In low limit hold'em the players tend to be so bad why would I pass up the opportunity to play someone HU? If they don't want to play with me then they can fold. Although I am polite when I say I don't chop, people still tend to get irritated. They will often raise me out of spite regardless of their hand and/or take their hand too far and and up paying me off.
I have taken the time to try and improve my HU game. If you or other people have not, that is your own problem. Is poker not about exploiting an opponents weaknesses? So why does being HU in the blinds change that? Against the average player I feel that being HU in this situation is +EV for me. I have definately won more money playing HU in the blinds than I have lost due to the rake created from not chopping.
Offering to chop in the blinds with AA is ludicrous to me. Like you said, you didn't end up chopping and ended taking your opponents entire stack. You were willing to pass up an opportunity to make money. Hmm... Let me see if I can understand this logic... "Let me fold now and give up a few bucks in rake or play my hand and potentially win hundreds." Nope, I don't understand. Why do you even bother to play poker if you think like this? Is it also impolite to check-raise or slow play?
You're entitled to your opinion about it being "bad karma" not to chop. You can also continue to request a seat change to your lucky seat and make sure not to leave for the casino without wearing your lucky thong.
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If you chop, then you chop every possible hand. Only a fool would chop with someone who 'selectively' chooses what hands to chop.
If you chop every hand possible it is like you didn't even get cards, and it is definately EV+ every time.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doggz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
I guess I'm an ass. I have never chopped although I have had the opportunity to many times. Some people get pissed, but it is my choice to play my hand if I so choose. I play 1/2 and 2/5 NL and 2/6 or 5/10 LHE. In no limit the implied odds are worth enough to me at least complete my SB or see a flop when I'm in the BB. In low limit hold'em the players tend to be so bad why would I pass up the opportunity to play someone HU? If they don't want to play with me then they can fold. Although I am polite when I say I don't chop, people still tend to get irritated. They will often raise me out of spite regardless of their hand and/or take their hand too far and and up paying me off.
I have taken the time to try and improve my HU game. If you or other people have not, that is your own problem. Is poker not about exploiting an opponents weaknesses? So why does being HU in the blinds change that? Against the average player I feel that being HU in this situation is +EV for me. I have definately won more money playing HU in the blinds than I have lost due to the rake created from not chopping.
Offering to chop in the blinds with AA is ludicrous to me. Like you said, you didn't end up chopping and ended taking your opponents entire stack. You were willing to pass up an opportunity to make money. Hmm... Let me see if I can understand this logic... "Let me fold now and give up a few bucks in rake or play my hand and potentially win hundreds." Nope, I don't understand. Why do you even bother to play poker if you think like this? Is it also impolite to check-raise or slow play?
You're entitled to your opinion about it being "bad karma" not to chop. You can also continue to request a seat change to your lucky seat and make sure not to leave for the casino without wearing your lucky thong.
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If you chop, then you chop every possible hand. Only a fool would chop with someone who 'selectively' chooses what hands to chop.
If you chop every hand possible it is like you didn't even get cards, and it is definately EV+ every time. |
Exactly.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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you can't look at your hand and then offer a chop. you have to offer the chop without looking. otherwise when you do not offer a chop, it is obvious you have a good hand.
my friend chops every time without looking, even in the bb. i offered him a chop while on his right and he accepted. we flipped and he turned out to have AA. then i asked the dealer to run it out and he would have flopped a set and rivered QUAD ACES. hahahhaa. later the same night, he chopped again with KK and would have flopped a set. he still gets pissed whenever i bring it up. not that he minds chopping with AA/KK, but rabbit chasing afterwards was too much for him to bear.
ChezJ
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vegas726
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Vegas
Posts: 6
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I pretty much live at the Borgata Casino in Atantic City and my rule is simple, If it is a raked game I dont chop, If it is a timed game such as the 10/20 and 20/40 limit games i will to speed up the game.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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i always thought it was the opposite... the rake makes it highly inefficient to play, so you should chop. the time charge relieves you of that pressure so you are free to attack/defend the blinds.
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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Ya, I always chop. I know some of the players in my game pretty well, and occassionally we'll agree to just check it down heads up. I know that it neither avoids the rake nor speeds up the game, but it does make it interesting.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
with $4 + tip comming out of every pot.
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$4 + tip on every hand? That's like dealer's paradise. All the regular
players in my local cardroom bring a roll of .50 tokens to tip the dealer with, and that's the standard. $20 pot? .50 tip. $200 pot? .50 tip. Tips not only cut hard into profits, a player splashing big tips around is automatically a mark. (Tips to sexy cocktail waitresses who might be available is a different story). The biggest pot I ever won was over $1200 and I splurged to tip $1.50.
I made up for it by giving the same dealer a huge tip on a bad beat jackpot that I won.
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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Oh, I just read Fnord's B&M guide for online players, and the tipping suggestions are totally sensible.
I'm just cheap.
Still, when i see a player throw $4 at the dealer after picking up a $50 pot, I know that he's not too attached to his $, not counting bb's per hour, and I'll act accordingly.
Totally agree, however, that good service (resolved dispute, helped new players and kept the game moving) deserves an end-of-the-shift tip. End-of-shift is also more memorable.
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BoondockSaint
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,844
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i saw a dude chop KK in the BB at imperial palace the other day - someone offered a chop to my friend when he had AA in the big blind (he said no) - seems out of the people I have come into contact with its either chop everytime they can or never chop no matter how bad their cards
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Boondock the Bot-Slayer
-'rilla
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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Ya, it's fun to show a premimum hand when you chop. It shows that you're a sport.
Oppose that to the douchebags who show their 6 2 when everyone folds around to them in the BB online.
Chopping to me is just a concession to game conditions - it's a matter of getting into the flow of the game. Basically, I chop in limit because most everyone else does. Most people would rather that everybody chopped for obvious reasons.
If I sat in a game where players didn't like chopping, then I wouldn't cry about it, I'd adjust.
I consider it justice when stubborn non-choppers get burned. (These are the same donks that raise A 10 o from the blind with 4-5 limpers. They're fixated on their own cards.) They want to get value regardless of the game conditions, so instead of chopping they raise and get killed by a hidden set or 2 pair. Very glad to say that I've been on the giving end of that.
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simplekid
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 18
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Poker, just like all other sports in the world, has a thing called etiquette, a.k.a. sportsmanship. Now I've read all of your entries and though you are entitled to your own opinion about the implied odds, players reactions and all this other crap, it all boils down to just being a good "neighbor". The blinds in all games are considered to be "random" hands, and for this reason they are hardly ever thought of as being powerful. The players in the blind are not only forced to bet, but they are also in the worst position, therefore they are considered vulnerable. This is why alot of the time you'll see the player on the button raise before the blinds even have the option to "chop". Which to me, though I wouldn't do this in anything other than tournament play, is far more respectable than choosing not to chop when given the oppurtunity.
I've been a poker dealer for over 6 years now and I also play every chance I get. The simple fact is that the only time you should not chop is in a shorthanded game, or at a tournament table.
Three weeks ago, I played in a $2/5 no limit game at a friends house. I'm in the small blind and pick up 9-4 offsuit, everyone folds and it gets down to me and the BB. When he rejected my offer to chop, I felt forced to play this monster for all it was worth and teach him a lesson in poker etiquette. I raise it to $45 and he looks at me like I'm crazy before he calls. Flop comes 2,3,8 rainbow, first to bet, I bet the pot, $90. He thinks for a minute and then mucks his hand (which I later found out was pocket sixes) and asks me what I had, of course I told him the truth and that I felt like I had to protect my pocket aces in that position. Needless to say, by the end of the night, he didn't mind chopping.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by simplekid
Poker, just like all other sports in the world, has a thing called etiquette, a.k.a. sportsmanship.
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Come on man, etiquette? Talk about your image, talk about the rake, talk about the speed of the game, but to equate not chopping with being unsportsmanlike is rediculous. Everyone is entitled to play their hand the way they choose. If you're trying to be a good "neighbor" then you're playing the wrong game. The only time you should be concerned about being a good "neighbor" is if it works into the type of image you want to portray.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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bantam222
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 208
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by call_me_CHEF
I always view it as bad Karma not to chop.
I had AA and offered to chop with a guy in 1/2 nl, he didn't want to, we ended up getting all the chips working preflop.
it ended up KK vs AA, and I busted him. All because he was greedy after seeing KK.
just my 2 cents.
-CHEF
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you cant really blame the guy, maybe the best hand he has seen in a few hours and doesnt want it to end pre-flop with $0 profit
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teddosan
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Waukesha, WI
Posts: 22
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Yes, etiquette... It actually does exist even in poker. Let me guess, you are also the guy who asks to see all hands that call the river and the guy who slow-rolls the nuts, right?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
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Originally Posted by simplekid
Poker, just like all other sports in the world, has a thing called etiquette, a.k.a. sportsmanship.
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Come on man, etiquette? Talk about your image, talk about the rake, talk about the speed of the game, but to equate not chopping with being unsportsmanlike is rediculous. Everyone is entitled to play their hand the way they choose. If you're trying to be a good "neighbor" then you're playing the wrong game. The only time you should be concerned about being a good "neighbor" is if it works into the type of image you want to portray. |
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courtiebee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: glorious bc
Posts: 3,552
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Many people autoraise all in if someone refuses to chop. I suppose that certainly could backfire, haha, although personally I have never seen it backfire before. It IS a matter of etiquette to chop when folded to, though, no question.
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http://donkeybrains.wordpress.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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If you want etiquette, go to blackjack or craps or a table game or something, because Poker is NOT it. Those people that refuse to steal the blinds because they dont think it as proper, or, those that don't check/raise the river when they hit their hand because they feel bad, are the people that will never make money in the game.
When I first started playing live I never understood the whole chopping thing. Frankly, I dont want to chop and you don't have to if you dont want to. But the higher you get up in games and limits, the lower your edge is postflop. I do wish we could chose when we want to chop and when not to, but I cant.
I've learned that if you are going to chop, and you are in either one of the blinds, don't even look at your hand until someone else has entered the pot. The more I play, the more I realize chopping is better than not chopping, and if you have to chop too often, then maybe you should find a different game.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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courtiebee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: glorious bc
Posts: 3,552
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
if you have to chop too often, then maybe you should find a different game.
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good point
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http://donkeybrains.wordpress.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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paratrooper99
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
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Chopping is customary and makes sense no matter what cards you have. True story from a table I played at Hollywood casino, Indiana. As BB in a 1-3 nlhe game, the SB asks for a chop prior to looking at hole cards, the BB looks at his cards and says "no." That might be a tell. So, SB looks down at JTdiamonds. Good hand for cracking good hands, so he limps to see what the BB does and the BB raises ten dollars to $13. Even though out of position, the SB calls bringing the pot to $26. Flop comes 9d8s7c rainbow. Dream flop for the SB. He checks, intending to check-raise. The BB checks and Kd comes on the turn. The SB Bets $20, now knowing that he should be way ahead even if BB hit a set. BB raises to $80. SB has to be thinking that BB looked down at a premium or good suited connector. Maybe AQ diamonds but unlikely. SB shoves and BB calls. BB shows AA and is drawing dead. SB says, "You should have chopped, sir." BB says, " I agree."
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stinger
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 57
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You are all assuming that the sb has a hand. If I am in the sb and I have a hand like 3-9os and the bb refuses to chop and raises I will smile and pass him my $1.00/ I am not going to play a crap hand to teach anyone a lesson.
I was at the casino the other night and a player raised the pot to 20.00 before ther flop and everyone folded. He had AA and he picked up the blinds. Its tough to wait hours for a hand and get no action but some trimes it better than having your aces cracked to the tune of a few 100.00 dollars by someoine that stayed with 2-3 and paired them on the river.
Most of the casinos in my hometown pay a 100.00 for the first five aces cracked in the morning and afternoon. This alright in 3-6 limit but the few times I have won the 100.00 in NL I was still in the hole.
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idfk
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Two Pair
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Melboure, Australia
Posts: 28
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Y'all should come down to Aus to play!!! You will love it I swear!!
2/5NL is the shit!!
$10 per hour time charge just to sit down and play.
Rake of $6 (maximum) almost every hand since every hand that makes a flop is around $50.
I have only seen one hand get folded to SB.
Chopping preflop would be unheard of, just as agreeing to check it down can get you dealt out for 3 hands.
Tipping the dealer is strictly forbidden.
Tipping the waitress is -EV as a coke will cost you $2.50 (or $22 for a double curevo 1800 and lemonade) and if youre going to tip a waitress to get in her pants you are better off going to a hooker!
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aqn
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High Card
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplekid
Poker, just like all other sports in the world, has a thing called
etiquette, a.k.a. sportsmanship. [...] The blinds in all games are considered to be "random" hands,
and for this reason they are hardly ever thought of as being powerful.
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Random is the operative word here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99
Chopping is customary and makes sense no matter what cards you
have.
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I have played about 200 hours of 2-5NL HE in Vegas and Atlantic City.
I'm in the "always chop" camp. My reasoning is: players play a hand (raise, limp, call) for a reason:
the hand is a contender in some way.
How often do two random hands happen to both be "contenders" and therefore might bring
about good action? The most frequent result is probably that one player would win 1BB.
(Note that the OP's caveat about "every time or never" applies. It makes no sense to choose to chop
or not each time, especially after looking at one's cards.)
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Ghaleon
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 224
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Sorry for adding to such an old thread, but I wanted to offer one other perspective here.
When I play in casinos, usually they have high-hand jackpots. usually it's $100 for quads, and then straight flushes and royals are progressive depending on suit. Bally's, Ceasars, Planet Hollywood, and Flamingo do this. I'm not sure who else.
So, when I sit at a 1/2NL table, i talk it over with the guys on ether side of me. The plan is to chop ALMOST every time. If one of us has a pocket pair, or any two cards to a straight/royal flush, we raise to $6 and then check every street. (There needs to be at least $10 in the pot to qualify for the jackpot, i dont' know if that's before or after the rake, so I go to $6 just to be safe).
If I'm in the BB, I have no problem putting an extra $4 with a random hand if I know it's never gonna cost me any more than that.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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wow threadomancy
I've played 10 different locations my entire life for live poker. 9 out of 10 requred that if I chopped once, I chopped always, and I only got to switch once in my lifetime.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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some casinos take a $1 jackpot drop before the hand begins by raking in the small blind. chopping is obviously impossible at such tables.
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02-10-2012, 10:26 AM WPT Lucky Hearts Poker Open Starts Today in Florida
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