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sk8r_daniel
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03-29-2009, 05:50 AM
Post subject: Can I fold this turn?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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I have everybody covered.
I have K2o in the SB. like 7 limps and I call.
Flop (16 bucks)
KQJ rainbow.
I check, VILLAIN bets 6 dollars, 2 callers, I call and 1 other caller.
Turn (48)
DUECE...also putting a flush draw on board.
I lead for 30 i think. check, Villain goes all in for $40 more. everyone else folds.
A little info on the villain. He has not played many hands at all. The hands he has played have been quite passive. I have not seen him go to showdown.
I am getting 3 to 1 pot odds and I have 2 pair, but I only beat something stupid like AK, KT, QT or maybe some sort of strong draw. The problem is that my read is that he is passive so i am discounting the draw possibilities quite a bit. So I lose to KQ and KJ, AT, and 9T but beat AK, KT, and QT.
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GahGah604
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
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I say your likely ahead here, unless someone limped kJ, KQ (possible but unlikely)
I am also not putting anyone on a staight here.
I think you win this hand pushing all in here.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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No.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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i dont complete small blind with trash very often. As played, i'd pay the man his tiny money.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Considering I havent seen this guy raise preflop in 2 hours I think he is quite capable of limping with KJ or KQ. What i don't know is if he would pansy bet the flop like that with 2 pair.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Fold pre-flop. You will end up second best way too often and are out of position in a massivly multi-way pot. FIX THIS LEAK.
Flop is a trivial fold. Even if you're good now, you often will be beat by the river and are out of position.
Those two common mistakes put you on a spot where you figure to have often caught second best on the turn. People comment that I don't seem to get into difficult spots as often as other players. This is why.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
Considering I havent seen this guy raise preflop in 2 hours I think he is quite capable of limping with KJ or KQ. What i don't know is if he would pansy bet the flop like that with 2 pair.
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Given his shallow stack, I think you could go either way here. Its just not worth trying to think too much in a limped small pot. Also, you should take Fnord's advice, dont complete small blind with trash.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Everyone is just so bad that i am not noticing my own leaks.
So what cards are at the bottom end of your range for completing the SB in multiway pots of say 5+ limpers?
Are you completing with hands like 53o ? or 47o? what about Kx suited?
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kfaess
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 556
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
Everyone is just so bad that i am not noticing my own leaks.
So what cards are at the bottom end of your range for completing the SB in multiway pots of say 5+ limpers?
Are you completing with hands like 53o ? or 47o? what about Kx suited?
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When completing in the small blind I like to ask myself what hand am I hoping to flop? With K2, even if you flop a pair of kings you can still end up losing a big pot and its going to be tricky to play for the rest of the hand after the flop. If I was playing it then I'd be hoping to flop at least two pair to continue after the flop, but the odds of that happening probably don't justify the preflop call (not sure on the exact numbers here), which is why everyone is telling you to fold it.
Hands like 53o or 47o can flop a well disguised strait, but again the odds of that happening are slim.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Massivly multi-way and stationy/wild games:
Pocket pairs (for the love of god and all that is +EV don't raise less than Tens or so)
Suited connectors
Suited 1-gappers
Suited 2-gappers because I lack enough self control.
Suited Aces.
Suited Kings.
Suited Queens because I lack enough self control.
Suited anything when I'm stuck.
Offsuit broadways.
Usually raising TT+/AK/AQ/KQ and suited broadways here. If you want to make it like 12x or something suited connectors are the bomb to mix with your big cards.
Muck just about anything offsuit with any card less than ten.
If there are only one or two limpers then complete with a lot of garbarge and sometimes just fire away at the flop and often follow up with a second barrel. Once you stop doing stupid shit like trying to check/raise the flop and lead your monsters it will be a credible bluff.
If you're in a California rake game smaller than $5/$10 I just wouldn't bother to complete much at all after a limper or two because the pot will be too small to steal or build if you hit. The structure makes it raise or fold.
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 703
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Fnord, how do you feel about unsuited connectors in a massive multiway pot?
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Usually raising TT+/AK/AQ/KQ and suited broadways here. If you want to make it like 12x or something suited connectors are the bomb to mix with your big cards.
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Haha, I love balancing my SB/BB raising range after the table FINALLY realises that I play tight OOP preflop. The table starts folding their limps to you and you just keep raking it in...until they get tired of it and they play back at you when you have the nuts. Gotta love poker.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Fnord, how do you feel about unsuited connectors in a massive multiway pot?
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I did a post awhile back on the math of unsuited connectors. Basically, you need at least 6 people in the pot with deep stacks relative to the betting for unsuited connectors to be potentially positive EV. And even then, your post-flop play better be superb.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
I did a post awhile back on the math of unsuited connectors. Basically, you need at least 6 people in the pot with deep stacks relative to the betting for unsuited connectors to be potentially positive EV. And even then, your post-flop play better be superb.
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This is limit thinking. In the unlimited hold'them just muck.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
I did a post awhile back on the math of unsuited connectors. Basically, you need at least 6 people in the pot with deep stacks relative to the betting for unsuited connectors to be potentially positive EV. And even then, your post-flop play better be superb.
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This is limit thinking. In the unlimited hold'them just muck. |
Not quite, Fnord. Suppose you have 78 offsuit, and you are on the button. All 6 players to act before you limp in, and you know that the SB and BB are passive players who never raise pre-flop. Finally, every single player at the table has a stack of more than 100bb.
Now, are you telling me in that situation that paying to see that flop is a negative expected value play?
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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If it is -ev then its a shock to me.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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when a few bad players with deep stack limp in, i tend to limp behind with middle unsuited connectors on CO & BT in soft games.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
If it is -ev then its a shock to me.
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Trust me, it isn't.
Nonetheless, Fnord's right on the big picture. To play unsuited connectors other than in a "play the player, not the cards" situation, you not only need to get in cheaply with lots of people with big stacks in the hand, but you also need to be a very good post-flop player. The circumstances where these hands are actually playable don't arise very often, and I see way too many players playing them in negative EV situations at the tables I play at.
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derekvsmith
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 41
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i actually think u played this bad you shouldnt have called a bet n e way in a multiway i think its highly likely that some1 would bet there 2 pair in this situation or even the low ball straight i mean with everyone in the pot the odds are you are going to get a caller or 2 i think u should have folded on the flop
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Now, are you telling me in that situation that paying to see that flop is a negative expected value play?
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I play very loose over-limping on the button after limpers and have mixed feeling about it. PT said it was a marginal winning play and I just go with that, although it certainly gets me in spots. I certainly think position is well worth the extra cost.
The SB has the worst position and I just give it up a lot because there is so much money behind and anyone could have anything.
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Azazel
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 48
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Thanks for the posts Fnord, I think calling almost anything from SB in a 5+limped pot is a fair leak in my live game.
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