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5/10 live how much cash to bring?

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meeloche

05-15-2009, 01:36 AM Post subject: 5/10 live how much cash to bring?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

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Gonna be in Vegas for 12 days for the WSOP. I want to play as much cash as I feel like. (8/12 days for like 5 hours per day is a rough guess) How much money should I bring with me ie what are the swings like in a live 5/10 game. I think I'll be playing half 2/5 half 5/10 I'd imagine depending on the quality of the games.

is 5k strictly for poker enough? I guess I could get more cash if I bust it but I'd have to trade cash for pokerstars money with somebody and I don't know how difficult that would be.

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Alexos

05-15-2009, 01:48 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

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Posts: 2,766

if you're a live fish like me you ought a bring more dough imo

Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.

Fnord

05-15-2009, 04:41 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

~10k

Don't buy-in crazy deep. Once you get table feel and decide you want to play deeper against someone, either add-on or play with other people's money.

$750 is a fine buy-in for $5/$10. $1500 is more than enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

05-15-2009, 04:44 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

if you're a live fish like me

Yeah, crazy online players who stick it in light, can't fold a pair on the river, go on bordem tilt and don't know how to set-up crazy huge edges.

...If you're going to try to play your online game, not buying in deep will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Alexos

05-15-2009, 04:45 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

if you're a live fish like me

haha thanks!

Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.

Fnord

05-15-2009, 04:59 AM

#6 (permalink)

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This applies to mid stakes live games where people feel real pain when they rebuy. Some of this isn't true in 1/2 games and against rich/crazy guys who just don't care. I wrote this a while ago and edited it a bit.

* Tend to polarize your turn bet range when there are two or more big bets behind. You're often better off checking top pair sorts of hands to read the othe guy on the river than betting for value because you'll tend to get a lot of folds from even top pair weak kicker and put yourself in a world of hurt playing the river. With a single big bet behind just blast away to protect the pot and you're more likely to get called by worse without the threat of future correctly sized bets.

*Turned flushes often get checked behind.

* When a loose passive over-bets the pot (often without initative) on a drawy board they almost always have a hand like top pair, maybe QQ-TT, maybe a weak two pair. THIS IS ALMOST NEVER A DRAW, they're trying to price them out. If you shove over, they will probably realize that they pot-fucked themselves and call down after calling for time. Do not play back without AT LEAST TPTK. Also give up your draws that aren't at least a coin flip against top pair, they played correctly against your hand but get whacked by better.

* Don't build out-of-control pots in a straddled pot unless there is a lot of money behind. It's VERY easy to set-up a SPR of 1 or 2, then have to commit with QTs top pair for an entire buy-in. Certainly profitable, but probably less than if you just limped and gave yourself room to make a decision. In other words, you don't have to build the pot, because the pot is already built. If you must open for a raise, make it small relative to the straddle (2.5x does the job.) Jamming to isolate is fine (and wildly profitable.)

* When your line is bet/fold, don't forget to fold.

* 75-150ish bb deep don't bother to 4-bet. AK/QQ will tend to fold if you shove, but will go crazy if you flat. AK loves to over-bet the flop on air. KK running into an Ace board here and there (granted, last time my opponent over-bet the flop and stacked off anyway) is a small price to pay for getting worse hands to commit even on bad boards.

* Tend to fold AK to re-raises, particuarly against passive players.

* Hand people the rope. Some players are very tight callers, but will throw lots of money into the pot light when they smell weakness. Another departure from the online and small stakes game of just value betting the shit out of people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

meeloche

05-15-2009, 05:21 AM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

I've played a number of live sessions in my life so I don't think I'll go to crazy. I played a bunch of 2/5 at the venetian last time I was in vegas so I have a decent idea of how it will play.

Fnord, thanks for the detailed reply.

How should I expect the 5/10 games at the rio or the vennetian (likely mostly the rio) to play? I'm guessing pretty weak/passive? Besides the online guys that I'll probably be able to pick out.

Whats the table usually made up with players wise?

Thanks.

Fnord

05-15-2009, 05:40 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

How should I expect the 5/10 games at the rio or the vennetian (likely mostly the rio) to play? I'm guessing pretty weak/passive? Besides the online guys that I'll probably be able to pick out.

Last time I was there it was like:
A couple nits
Two or so ex-online players who can't beat mid stakes online anymore.
Two or so live specialists who play too loose/passive but make up for it in other spots.
Some random tourney donk you've seen on ESPN.
Two or three or so buisnessmen or donks feeding the game.

The V had A LOT of kinda nitty regs at 2/5 and 5/10 who played a very particular game. You can't really crush them because they won't give enough action and I probably gave them too much action in the wrong spots until I adjusted.

The mix might be better for WSOP though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

UnknownFlush

05-15-2009, 07:55 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2008

Location: Sweden

Posts: 13

I would like to taked me 2000$ for that Live

LawDude

05-15-2009, 04:45 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

*Turned flushes often get checked behind.

This is huge and also applies to turned straights. Every day I see people lose money with decent hands when the 3rd card to the flush or straight comes on the turn, check-check, and then BOOM on the river! You need to watch closely as to which players like to bet their big hands and which players like to slow play them, and have a strategy for what you are going to do against each type if the 3rd card to the straight or flush comes.

* Don't build out-of-control pots in a straddled pot unless there is a lot of money behind. It's VERY easy to set-up a SPR of 1 or 2, then have to commit with QTs top pair for an entire buy-in. Certainly profitable, but probably less than if you just limped and gave yourself room to make a decision. In other words, you don't have to build the pot, because the pot is already built. If you must open for a raise, make it small relative to the straddle (2.5x does the job.) Jamming to isolate is fine (and wildly profitable.)

This is true too. The straddle works a little differently than a blind raise, but it is nonetheless a raise. You have to be aware of the fact that you are essentially re-raising when you raise it up, and decide whether that's something you want to do with the hand you have and against the players who are left to act in front of you.

I might add more generally that when I play no limit at a casino that allows a straddle, straddling probably causes as many leaks as anything. Some people play overly loose, some people play overly tight, and many people straddle when they have no idea of how to play a hand after straddling.

* When your line is bet/fold, don't forget to fold.

This is a nice tip live, but I suspect it's true online, too. Indeed, I suspect it has been true in every poker game since the game was invented.

* 75-150ish bb deep don't bother to 4-bet. AK/QQ will tend to fold if you shove, but will go crazy if you flat. AK loves to over-bet the flop on air. KK running into an Ace board here and there (granted, last time my opponent over-bet the flop and stacked off anyway) is a small price to pay for getting worse hands to commit even on bad boards.

The corollary to this is if you are playing with a relatively short stack as Fnord recommends, and you think you are ahead of villain's range and can get worse hands to call, shoving pre-flop can work too. It will also get players scared of your raises and build some fold equity in the future, which is especially important because too many players in live games reflexively call pre-flop raises once they limp in which often reduces the value of a premium hand. (You can call this the "in for a penny in for a pound" poker strategy.)

meeloche

05-15-2009, 05:14 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

The V had A LOT of kinda nitty regs at 2/5 and 5/10 who played a very particular game. You can't really crush them because they won't give enough action and I probably gave them too much action in the wrong spots until I adjusted.

The mix might be better for WSOP though.

I definitely noticed this type of player and I found playing every hand to be a nice counter since they didn't adjust and wouldn't play back. Definitely a good reminder not to give them too much action since they aren't adjusting.

Sounds like I won't be too surprised by the play when I get there.

Thanks.

yourfather

05-15-2009, 07:01 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

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Posts: 603

Yeah thanks Fnord for that info. I started playin alot of 2-5nl live and there's some useful stuff there. People play straddled pots really bad/weird, including people who always defend their straddle. I've put myself in some bad spots by raising the straddle as well.

Fnord

05-15-2009, 09:04 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LawDude

* When your line is bet/fold, don't forget to fold.

This is a nice tip live, but I suspect it's true online, too. Indeed, I suspect it has been true in every poker game since the game was invented.

Two issues here:

First, live players tend to bluff less often than online players. Particularly for big money. So calls that were marginal to goodish to badish online become worse live. Second, it could be hours until you get to play a pot with a real hand, so it's harder to let go of one when you have one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawDude

* 75-150ish bb deep don't bother to 4-bet. AK/QQ will tend to fold if you shove, but will go crazy if you flat. AK loves to over-bet the flop on air. KK running into an Ace board here and there (granted, last time my opponent over-bet the flop and stacked off anyway) is a small price to pay for getting worse hands to commit even on bad boards.

The corollary to this is if you are playing with a relatively short stack as Fnord recommends, and you think you are ahead of villain's range and can get worse hands to call, shoving pre-flop can work too. It will also get players scared of your raises and build some fold equity in the future, which is especially important because too many players in live games reflexively call pre-flop raises once they limp in which often reduces the value of a premium hand. (You can call this the "in for a penny in for a pound" poker strategy.)

First, their 3-bet ranges are just terrible. You can't be giving up much by mucking AK to most of them and never 4 bet bluffing (obviously don't take this approach against aggressive opponents.) When you do play, 4-betting will often get folds from the bottom of their range that they otherwise would have horribly misplayed post-flop so just flat your entire range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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