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LawDude
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03-03-2009, 10:26 PM
Post subject: 200NL donk-a-thon
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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For a change of pace, I played 200NL (rather than limit) today. The funny thing about low-moderate stakes no limit live tables in these parts is that people play just as loose as limit. Two hands stand out in my mind.
The first one, I had 55 on the button. 5 loose players limped, and I raised to $30. Everyone called(!).
Flop comes JJ2. Everyone checks. I bet $100. I get 3 callers! Obviously someone might have a jack, but I'm looking at these people and have seen them play and I really doubt it.
Turn is a J. Everyone checks to me. At this point, I am convinced that only the case jack beats me. MAYBE someone might have a higher pocket pair, but this is doubtful because I think they would have been betting their hand and not check-calling. There's 4 people in the hand with decent stacks, and they have the look of calling stations, so I'm getting pretty good pot odds on nobody having it (which is what I believe). So I shove. ALL 3 PLAYERS CALL MY SHOVE!
Upshot. I was right. Nobody had the jack. Two of the callers just had Ace-rag. But the guy under the gun turned over TT! That's right, he limped TT under the gun and then passively called a pre-flop raise, and won with it despite a scary flop and bet. I guess that's how people play TT under the gun around here. I certainly couldn't put him on that hand.
But my cooler couldn't even compare to the bad beat that I saw another player take. This guy had QQ in the cutoff and raised pre-flop (I can't remember exactly what the amount of the raise was but it was the first time I had seen him raise in something like 50 hands). The BB (who was clearly loose aggressive), in response to his raise, shoved. Cutoff calls. Flop was QJT, with 2 hearts. Turn was 8 of hearts, river was 7 of spades. CO turns over his set of queens. BB turns over 4h2h. They practically had to restrain the guy in the CO.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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The 55 hand was very poorly played.
Take a flop and go nuts if you get a set. Fail that, raise to like $10 to build a pot but then you risk the TT guy shoving over.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Yes I agree, why would you think that 55 was good after getting all of those callers?? And why are you building a pot with a weak hand against a bunch of calling stations.
Limping with TT utg is quite a standard move in loose passive live games. Even good players do this for a couple of reasons:
1. Raising utg often gets no respect and they get 3+ callers and have to play TT oop. Not Fun!
2. Playing for implied odds of set value in these games is very profitable.
3. Other opportunities may arise: For example, a short stack makes a desperation all in after a series of limpers and you can then isolate the small stack with a big raise.
Usually I would raise with TT but often times I call if the moment is right.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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I'm certainly aware that the guy with TT outplayed me on that hand. But with an underpair on a paired board, I have found that representing trips against weak players is profitable long term. They often decide they can't afford to continue.
I do realize that some players limp high pocket pairs. But that's a lot different than calling aggression with them, especially after a scary flop.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Someone missed the calling station memo.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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What were the blinds?
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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The thing about a lot of these calling stations in low stakes no limit is that there is often only a certain amount of aggression that they are willing to withstand. In other words you get them to call you down to put money in the pot and then increase the pressure until they fold. (If they keep calling or put in a raise, obviously you have to back off.) As it turned out out one of them actually had a hand that went from scary to good when the third jack hit the board, so his calling station tendencies were rewarded. I still say that isn't the way to play TT either pre- or post-flop, though I do understand that some people do it at low stakes NL.
As I said, though, I am quite aware that I certainly misplayed the hand given that I couldn't place the Villain on a hand like TT. I posted about it in part because I thought it reflected some of the strange play that one sees at my local live tables.
I should add to this the following-- having an underpair to a paired board is a very interesting situation. There are 2 cards in the deck that you know will beat you, and the other question is whether anyone has a better pair or made a boat. Thus, it is one of those situations where you really have to try to figure out whether you are ahead or not.
I try to rely on my reads and how I think the other players will react to my various actions. I don't have a formulaic way of playing these types of hands. I also suspect (especially since I play less NLHE than I used to) that there's probably big leaks in my game in this area, as it's a particularly tough situation.
The blinds were 3/5.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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You can play deeper for the same blind structure if you shop around a bit.
That said, no one is folding for 6x the big blind in that game once they start putting money in.
Tragically, that game is really best beat by playing a very tight, boring strategy because of the shallow stacks and high rake.
For example, I would raise to like $50 with KQo in that spot.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You can play deeper for the same blind structure if you shop around a bit.
That said, no one is folding for 6x the big blind in that game once they start putting money in.
Tragically, that game is really best beat by playing a very tight, boring strategy because of the shallow stacks and high rake.
For example, I would raise to like $50 with KQo in that spot.
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Certainly the part about the tight, boring strategy makes a lot of sense to me. But my reads are such a big part of my game in limit that I try to incorporate them into my no limit game and play hands where I perceive opponents to be weak. Gets me in trouble sometimes. 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I save those plays for spots where I'm not up against so many hands.
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frreshprince
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 100
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sucha bad play with 55. clearly never played NL before....why would you even raise preflop? why not take a cheap flop and try to connect? embarssing
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And i yelled to the cabby YO HOLMES SMELL YA LATER
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ChrisBCritter
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Falmouth, ME
Posts: 781
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by frreshprince
sucha bad play with 55. clearly never played NL before....why would you even raise preflop? why not take a cheap flop and try to connect? embarssing
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This is uncalled for. I know that you are new here, but instead of berating and flaming the OP on his admittedly bad play, give him some advice in a constructive manner. Nobody likes to be called stupid.
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Hey knucklehead! Bonk!
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by frreshprince
sucha bad play with 55. clearly never played NL before....why would you even raise preflop? why not take a cheap flop and try to connect? embarssing
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I've played plenty of NL, even though I play more limit now, one of the reasons I still like to sit at a NL table every once in awhile is to hone my skills (especially with respect to reads, table image, and implied odds, all of which are very important at NL).
That said, and while fully admitting I was outplayed on the hand, do you want to defend your view that one should never raise 55 preflop on the button?
What if I were to tell you that the players who had limped in were all pretty weak players who had been seeing a lot of flops with trash hands? What if I were to further tell you that in a few other hands, I outplayed these same players post-flop and was able to induce them to fold hands that were probably better to what I had, and that I made money on the night? And what if I were to tell you that I have often made money raising a small pocket pair from the button when the action is limped to me, because it often confuses players as to what I might have?
Would any of those things change your opinion?
Look, I don't raise 55 from the button all the time. That depends on my reads, and the players at the table, and how I think they will react to what I am doing. But personally, I think that a viewpoint that one should never do it is one that would require some explanation, as I can think of a lot of reasons why I would want to in certain situations.
Care to defend your point of view?
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