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Beck
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04-26-2009, 07:09 PM
Post subject: 1/2 NL vs very LAG
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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Villian has about $300 chips and plays 90% of his hands, talks alot, usually plays 3/5NL but his table got broken up and sits at the $1/2 since there were a few large stacks there. He is a regular and a profitable regular who talk all the time. plays kinda like Farha.
Hero: $450 in chips in the SB with  
4 players limp in I call villian checks
FLOP: (Pot $11)
  
I bet $10, Villian call (all game talking about stacking me, and calling almost any bet I made in other hands)
Turn ($30)
:Kh:
I bet $20, villian reraises it to $60
hero ?
I am stuck here, cause his play generally will be another 70-80 on the river if I just call on the turn. I feel he could have so many hands, a pair of jacks with a flush draw, a straight flush draw, KJ, he was on the BB he can have anything. And there are not many cards that can come on the river that I feel safe with
-beck
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-Beck
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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fold, show, and say
haha you're never going to stack me no matter what
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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OneEyeLefty
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In the batter's box. Already 0-1 count....
Posts: 125
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
fold, show, and say
haha you're never going to stack me no matter what
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Perfect, this should help you get doubled up later with the nuts.
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Careful what you wish for.....you just may get it!
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Folding seems pretty solid. Don't show though.
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Beck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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folding seams so damn weak. but that is what I did. I showed, so that I can see him show. He showed me . . . .
any guesses?
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-Beck
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Fold pre-flop, fold to the turn raise without more information.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Top two or a straight + flush draw?
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Sounds like he picked up outs.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Beck
He showed me . . . . any guesses?
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KQ?
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Beck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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8 4 no with 1 heart. There were just so many hands that can beat me, or are ready to draw out on me and beat me
Fnord: fold preflop? we are getting 11:1 odds here. How can we fold a 2 gapper?
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-Beck
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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I am sorry, but this fold is considered a HUGE MISTAKE in my poker system.
Never folding the best hand is one of the cornerstones of my system. What is the reason for playing tight if we still give away a lot of equity postflop?
I am dumbfounded by this one.
Sir P: Creates a situation where villain perceives his fold equity to be low.
Beck: Creates a situation where villain perceives his fold equity to be high.
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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As played I would think his range is something like: 67, 78, 89, 9T, TQ, 85, J8, JK, QK, 55, 88 (depending on how many hands he will raise pre rather than call) + random crap.
I don't see how you can possibly fold with the reads you have. You already said he will call almost any 2 cards on the flop.
Also I wouldn't be too concerned with calling another bet by him, unless you think he's completely FOS and will bluff the river with air... I would just call and make a smallish valuebet on the river. If he raises again, you can fold in peace.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot
Never folding the best hand is one of the cornerstones of my system.
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I can't help but suggest that this is a bad cornerstone.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Beck
Fnord: fold preflop? we are getting 11:1 odds here.
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Bzzt wrong answer.
You're getting a good chance (bb could still blow you off) of a dirt cheap flop out of position multi-way with a dogshit hand and a lot of money behind.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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The fold was perfectly reasonable. I think preflop is fine as well if you think you have a big skill edge vs most others in the pot. You can't justify it with pot odds alone just like fnord said.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
if you think you have a big skill edge vs most others in the pot.
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"Skill" works a lot better with position and/or initative. We have neither and a hand that just screams to make a 2nd best hand or fold the best hand in a multi-way pot.
Ask yourself if you would play that piece of cheese on the button. Because position is certainly worth half a big blind in value. Then consider that you might be playing too tight on the button.
People make this call all the time because they're bored and it's at worst a small mistake unless it cascades into a bigger one (as it frequently does.)
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GahGah604
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 138
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I think why most people call from the SB is they think that they might flop the nuts! and for one more dollar they can't pass it up. I also think if they havent played a hand in an hour, they are bored as you said. For the extra dollar... it is too hard to pass up. Basically the thing I do, is call almost any hand... then have the discipline to fold on the flop if I don't flop anything significant.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
if you think you have a big skill edge vs most others in the pot.
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"Skill" works a lot better with position and/or initative. We have neither and a hand that just screams to make a 2nd best hand or fold the best hand in a multi-way pot.
Ask yourself if you would play that piece of cheese on the button. Because position is certainly worth half a big blind in value. Then consider that you might be playing too tight on the button.
People make this call all the time because they're bored and it's at worst a small mistake unless it cascades into a bigger one (as it frequently does.) |
I completely agree with all of this, but I still think this call can show profit in the correct circumstances. I would play this on the button as well sometimes.
I think it's even fine to call just so you don't get bored or tilt when the flop comes 467 after you just folded.
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Beck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot
Beck: Creates a situation where villain perceives his fold equity to be high.
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I like this answer. Because its true villain does think he has a high fold equity on me (who has been playing pretty tight,) especially compared to him. Thinking that way maybe the fold on the turn is a mistake.
Fnord: In the right spot I would definitely play 58o on the button. position is everything. And I don't make that SB call with any 2.
Oskar: I have seen villian make big bets on the river with almost air.
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-Beck
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MDHughes604
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 19
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
if you think you have a big skill edge vs most others in the pot.
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"Skill" works a lot better with position and/or initative. We have neither and a hand that just screams to make a 2nd best hand or fold the best hand in a multi-way pot.
Ask yourself if you would play that piece of cheese on the button. Because position is certainly worth half a big blind in value. Then consider that you might be playing too tight on the button.
People make this call all the time because they're bored and it's at worst a small mistake unless it cascades into a bigger one (as it frequently does.) |
I totally disagree with your line on this preflop action.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with limping 85o there.
In fact, I will take it one step further and advocate for making the $1 limp.
Besides the price we are being laid as previously mentioned, the game (live 1/2) figures to be so soft that a player even marginally above average (for arguments sake), despite being oop, will get paid hugely should he flop magic.
Not only this, but image is everything in live poker. If people see you consistently folding for $1 every time its limped to you in the sb, your image takes a serious beating and your chances of getting paid off on a large (or even value) river bet diminsh in future hands when facing players who pay a decent amount of attention to what is going on.
If you can showdown some junk like 85o at a half decent price (even if it is the losing hand)- players LOG that into their memory, even subconsciously they think "the guy in seat 8 has the ability to bet with very marginal hands" and will come back to this knowledge in the future.
The only point I need to make very strongly, and repeatedly reiterate is that the player needs to have the ability to FOLD A BIG HAND. If you dont get married to your shitty trips, your OE draws, your top pair on an 8-2-3 flop... and trust in your decision making in read-based scenarios, then get the f*ck IN THERE with the 8-5o. Dont nit it up all day long and expect to walk away a winner every night
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MDHughes604
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
if you think you have a big skill edge vs most others in the pot.
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"Skill" works a lot better with position and/or initative. We have neither and a hand that just screams to make a 2nd best hand or fold the best hand in a multi-way pot.
Ask yourself if you would play that piece of cheese on the button. Because position is certainly worth half a big blind in value. Then consider that you might be playing too tight on the button.
People make this call all the time because they're bored and it's at worst a small mistake unless it cascades into a bigger one (as it frequently does.) |
I totally disagree with your line on this preflop action.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with limping 85o there.
In fact, I will take it one step further and advocate for making the $1 limp.
Besides the price we are being laid as previously mentioned, the game (live 1/2) figures to be so soft that a player even marginally above average (for arguments sake), despite being oop, will get paid hugely should he flop magic.
Not only this, but image is everything in live poker. If people see you consistently folding for $1 every time its limped to you in the sb, your image takes a serious beating and your chances of getting paid off on a large (or even value) river bet diminsh in future hands when facing players who pay a decent amount of attention to what is going on.
If you can showdown some junk like 85o at a half decent price (even if it is the losing hand)- players LOG that into their memory, even subconsciously they think "the guy in seat 8 has the ability to bet with very marginal hands" and will come back to this knowledge in the future.
The only point I need to make very strongly, and repeatedly reiterate is that the player needs to have the ability to FOLD A BIG HAND. If you dont get married to your shitty trips, your OE draws, your top pair on an 8-2-3 flop... and trust in your decision making in read-based scenarios, then get the f*ck IN THERE with the 8-5o. Dont nit it up all day long and expect to walk away a winner every night |
Never totally disagree with mr Fnord. Not even for arguments sake. He knows his shit.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MDHughes604
Not only this, but image is everything in live poker. If people see you consistently folding for $1 every time its limped to you in the sb, your image takes a serious beating and your chances of getting paid off on a large (or even value) river bet diminsh in future hands when facing players who pay a decent amount of attention to what is going on.
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o I long ago gave up trying to out-maniac live players in heavily raked pot games. Maybe worth considering in the 5/10 or 10/20+ uncapped games where they collect time.
o People will still pay you off. They just can't fold good second best hands.
o Double barreling people off hands steams them even worse than showing weak hands.
o Throw in a light 3-bet too. They will always see a flop and play fit/fold for absurd amounts of money up to around a third of their stack.
o A tight image is pretty exploitable and tends to keep people in line against you.
o I'm many things. A nit is not one of them. I tend to run over games until the stronger players figure out how wide my ranges really are. It's really fun playing both Ace King and whatever I really happen to have in the hole.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MDHughes604
I totally disagree with your line on this preflop action.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with limping 85o there.
In fact, I will take it one step further and advocate for making the $1 limp.
Not only this, but image is everything in live poker. If people see you consistently folding for $1 every time its limped to you in the sb, your image takes a serious beating and your chances of getting paid off on a large (or even value) river bet diminsh in future hands when facing players who pay a decent amount of attention to what is going on.
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nobody really pays attention to your image in 1-2 NL live. A tight aggressive play is definitely enough to crush these low-stake games full of low-level thinking amateurs. I used to complete small blind with trash like everyone else at the table and run into lots of tough spots really. Why do you want to make you life so difficult OOP in soo many small pots? Now i think that its really not worth your extra $1 when you got dealt shit in the worst position regardless of giant pot odds. Just focus on some big pots, use your position to PWN &blow off these donks and steal some easy money when nobody shows interest.
when you play opposite the tables style, you gain and take money back home.
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Beck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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Great discussion BTW,
Fnord: I really like your comments. Why play complete shit OOP. I would never play 27o from there. Would you have played 58s? 78s? What if the same situation developed? What if this same situation was from the BB?
but at the same time, I have called that dollar bet and hit bingo to take a $100 pot. So I am still not quite sure where to go with this. Unfortunately I do not have live poker tracker to decide if this move is profitable in the long run, but it sure has gotten me into tough spots just like this one.
MDHughes604 wrote: same comment as above. I really wonder if doing this is more profitable than not.
-beck
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-Beck
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I'm more inclined to play trash from the SB in a 4-way pot than an 8-way pot. Which is backwards from how most people view this spot.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I'm more inclined to play trash from the SB in a 4-way pot than an 8-way pot. Which is backwards from how most people view this spot.
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Interesting point. I just count the number of fish myself.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I'm more inclined to play trash from the SB in a 4-way pot than an 8-way pot. Which is backwards from how most people view this spot.
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Interesting point. I just count the number of fish myself. |
In a 4-way pot it's really easy to double barrel bruff for free monies or fail that instant table image.
Making a hand in hold'em is hard. Making a hand with dogshit cards is absurdly hard.
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Beck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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now that is balls to double barrel bluff from the SB. with a bunch of fish at a table.
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-Beck
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Beck
now that is balls to double barrel bluff from the SB. with a bunch of fish at a table.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz3qDu0WemM
They peel the flop with all sorts of crap and give up on the turn. Ideal spot for barreling.
Live poker is dreadfully slow and people are just dying to give me their money. Why wait for a hand?
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Beck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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very funny link. I thought is was going to be a poker hand example or something. OK I will give it a try on my next live game on the right flop.
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-Beck
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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You can rep pretty much any dry flop. If you can read body laguage (particularly people who tip their actions before you act on the flop) the success rate goes up a lot because you can abort mission and save one or both bets.
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