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This is where i am lost...

  
 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-01-2007, 08:42 PM     Post subject: This is where i am lost... #1 (permalink)  
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 You're in a 600NL 6-max game on stars, on your left is Sauce123, an aggressive and sometimes tricky, mid stakes NL player. You are a good and aggressive but not as tricky as sauce. He views you as solid.

Folds to you on the button, you raise with XX, sb folds and Sauce123 (who is playing out of the blinds a good amount) calls.

The flop is 994 rainbow. sauce checks to you, you cont bet, he c/r 3x.

I really really really just don't get this spot at all. With a straightforward abc tagg it's easy: this is usually a 9, 44, or utter air, and i can play accordingly. But with good aggro players, or just aggro players in general this becomes harder because this isn't a 9 enough to safely fold medium strength hands.

so, questions:

- what range of hands do you put him on?
- what hands do you continue with and what's your plan?
- how does this change if i'm on the CO and he's on the button (he has position)
- how does it change if the board is QQ5?
- how does it change if the board is 339?
- how does it change if the board is two tone?

Ok too many questions, feel free to just say anything you want on this matter.
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Fnord
Old 11-01-2007, 08:49 PM #2 (permalink)  
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How deep is the money?

That said, we're probbly playing Chicken here and need to adjust accordingly. Checking flops like this, 3-bet and delayed bluffs are all resonable lines. So is letting the Wookie win...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-01-2007, 09:03 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 assume 100BB's
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Fnord
Old 11-01-2007, 09:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
assume 100BB's
How big are you opening and c-betting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-01-2007, 09:48 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 You just have to really really think hard about this hand, this is essentially the difference between high stakes and lower stakes, it is so hard how to figure out playing this hand correctly.

Sauce could have 44+, 4x, Axs with a backdoor, 9x, or complete air. That being said any overcard is a great card for you, and to me that signals that its better to call here a lot and continue. NOTE though we can still have a balanced range of flop threebets, you just cant bluff as much.

AK or AQ seems like good hands to threebet the flop with.
55+ seems like a good calling range, maybe air sometimes.

This hand would be much more interesting if there was at least a gutshot on the flop.
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sauce123
Old 11-01-2007, 10:46 PM     Post subject: Re: This is where i am lost... #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
You're in a 600NL 6-max game on stars, on your left is Sauce123, an aggressive and sometimes tricky, mid stakes NL player. You are a good and aggressive but not as tricky as sauce. He views you as solid.

Folds to you on the button, you raise with XX, sb folds and Sauce123 (who is playing out of the blinds a good amount) calls.

The flop is 994 rainbow. sauce checks to you, you cont bet, he c/r 3x.

I really really really just don't get this spot at all. With a straightforward abc tagg it's easy: this is usually a 9, 44, or utter air, and i can play accordingly. But with good aggro players, or just aggro players in general this becomes harder because this isn't a 9 enough to safely fold medium strength hands.

so, questions:

- what range of hands do you put him on?
- what hands do you continue with and what's your plan?
- how does this change if i'm on the CO and he's on the button (he has position)
- how does it change if the board is QQ5?
- how does it change if the board is 339?
- how does it change if the board is two tone?

Ok too many questions, feel free to just say anything you want on this matter.
Max- I think ur mistake here is getting lost when ranges widen considerably. I'll tell you how I view this hand from my perspective (and my thinking here starts preflop).

When you raise from the button and I know your solid- I'm going to be cold calling the BB at least some % of the time with a range like 22-AA, Axs, AJ+, 87s+ or so. I'm often going to be re raising the upper part of this range for sure.

I know for a fact ur range is also v wide in this spot 22+, 98o+, 43s+, 64s+, 85s+, Axs, A7o+, T8o+ or something like that. this is 33.3% of hands- and is definitely significantly tighter than what I'd open with in this spot.

On a flop like 994 rainbow you could potentially fold everything but 44, 99, A9, K9, Q9, J9, T9, 98, 9xs, 88+ to my checkraise. This is 12.1% of hands, NOT COUNTING the lesser combos of 9x and 44 which the board cards would produce, so let's say like 9% (someone math savvy tell me how accurate this is).

If you open 33.3% of hands, cbet with all of them, and fold to my checkraise with all but 9%, I've just crushed you, EVEN IF I never have the best hand on the flop and never improve to the best hand, which obviously isn't the case. I'll respond more later with some of my own thoughts on how we can apply this...

(also, understanding thinking like this is one of the keys to HU play- and is probably the single main reason you have struggled with it)
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-01-2007, 11:01 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 You're right, i am very lost when hand ranges widen. So pretty much, although there are some hands that are better to bluff this board with then others, you pretty much have to c/r this board with any hand a good amount because it's a good play. But i do realize this and i'm not utterly clueless to this point. What i'm clueless about is what to do against it.

So for you sulsky, just pretend like the villain in this hand is just a very aggressive good TAGG that isn't you, you are the hero. What do you put him on, what turn cards are you going to bluff, etc. etc. I just want to know the thinking in this situation because i just have no idea how to proceed.

And Danny, what do you think is different about this hand when there are gutter possibilities?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-01-2007, 11:36 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Good post sauce, and id like you to answer max's question to because I tend to get lost on really wide ranges also and just go into raise mode because of it (which i assume isnt actually a bad thing).

In terms of why gutshots make it more interesting is
1. it widens sauce's range.
2. Your gutshot has almost 20% equity against any part of sauce's range besides a boat.

When deciding which hands to play back with, you have to realize: There's really no such thing as "a made hand," all that exists is equity to win. For example sure 66 is a better hand than a gutshot on that board, but which would we actually rather have after sauce has reraised? Now the answer may very well be 66, but think of the arguments for it not being the better hand here. When thinking about how to play back here, think of this.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-01-2007, 11:39 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Oh another rant.

The answer to this question is almost never call with 100% of your range. If you do this you're going to get killed. Versus any player at anytime this is almost never the answer. But some poor saps actually think this is the case and thats why they get owned by me when I threebet pre and raise the flop like a monkey.
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drmcboy
Old 11-02-2007, 04:17 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
on your left is Sauce123, an aggressive and sometimes tricky, mid stakes NL player.
Hero stands up?
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-02-2007, 04:49 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
Quote:
on your left is Sauce123, an aggressive and sometimes tricky, mid stakes NL player.
Hero stands up?

lol touche
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Lukie
Old 11-03-2007, 04:04 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 stop getting into this situation with 35% of your hands and only being able to felt like 1% of your hands
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-03-2007, 06:16 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
stop getting into this situation with 35% of your hands and only being able to felt like 1% of your hands
Yes this is basically what i learned from sauce's post. I kind of realized i was doing this a while ago, but for some reason it just didn't cross my mind that it needed to stop. Hopefully i can work on it and get better at analyzing the spots i get in.
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wufwugy
Old 11-08-2007, 05:39 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 lol you guys are smart
 
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Da GOAT
Old 11-08-2007, 10:18 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Real nice thread guys.

Id imagine its safe to pull off sauces move on flop alot at 100-200nl right?? since ppl are opening 33% but felting such a narrow 9% (for example) range as Massimo has except even the ppl at 100-200nl are probably felting even less.

And obv this doesnt just apply to paired boards at all, it applies to board texture compared to Opp 33% range, right. If you find a flop that misses a huge part of Opps range then you can c/r safely like sauce did/can.

Disclaimer:: im trying to be more vocal in these threads instead of saying ''nice thread'' lol so i can learn more.
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sauce123
Old 11-08-2007, 07:41 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da GOAT
Real nice thread guys.

Id imagine its safe to pull off sauces move on flop alot at 100-200nl right?? since ppl are opening 33% but felting such a narrow 9% (for example) range as Massimo has except even the ppl at 100-200nl are probably felting even less.

And obv this doesnt just apply to paired boards at all, it applies to board texture compared to Opp 33% range, right. If you find a flop that misses a huge part of Opps range then you can c/r safely like sauce did/can.

Disclaimer:: im trying to be more vocal in these threads instead of saying ''nice thread'' lol so i can learn more.
Da Goat- You should do this alllllllllllllllllll the time at 100/200nl to the point where against some ppl its more profitable to turn 22 into a bluff on a K44 r board when u CC in the BB and they opened the button.
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Da GOAT
Old 11-09-2007, 09:10 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
Da Goat- You should do this alllllllllllllllllll the time at 100/200nl to the point where against some ppl its more profitable to turn 22 into a bluff on a K44 r board when u CC in the BB and they opened the button.
Coollllllllllllllllllllllll, will do!! plus my strong hands will get paid nicely when i c/r flops alot vs opp's
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