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value shoving and bluff shoving

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griffey24

11-15-2009, 08:37 PM Post subject: value shoving and bluff shoving

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Hand 1
-not too many hands on villain, he was running 33/20 with a 3bet of 10 in 300 hands today
-earlier hand he double barreled AT with a bet of 25 into 130 on a AJ8d9d board and I rased him with JTdd and he called OOP and c/c a 6d river with tpwk and I showed down a rivered flush
-this hand was very soon after, his 3bet could be a stubborn "I'm annoyed at you" 3bet, not sure, and not sure what his small sizing pre means, esp given stacks
-reads on his timing/sizing are that he very likely doesn't have a flush

$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($1,081)
UTG+1 ($670.50)
CO ($616.05)
BTN ($500.55)
SB ($928.85)
BB ($574)

Pre-Flop: ($9, 6 players) Hero is UTG

Hero raises to $21, 3 folds, SB raises to $54, 1 fold, Hero calls $33

Flop:

($114, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $70, SB raises to $140, Hero calls $70

Turn:

($394, 2 players)
SB bets $198, Hero calls $198

River:

($790, 2 players)
SB bets $216, Hero ?

Hand 2
-squeezer has been running 25/20 3bet of 9 over 200 hands, and has squeezed a couple times
-CO has been playing pretty aggro, 3betting me a lot on other tables and 4betting as well. Doesn't seem to fold that often to 3bets (fold to 3bet 50%), and is 25/20 over a good sample
-no real dynamic this session with either player, so my image is probably decent/good

$5/$10 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1,000)
CO ($1,888)
BTN ($2,369)
Hero (SB) ($1,754)
BB ($1,554)

Pre-Flop: ($15, 5 players) Hero is SB

1 fold, CO raises to $30, 1 fold, Hero calls $25, BB raises to $120, CO calls $90, Hero calls $90

Flop:

($360, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks

Turn:

($360, 3 players)
Hero bets $266, BB calls $266, CO calls $266

River:

($1,158, 3 players)
Hero ponders shove...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

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Ravageur

11-15-2009, 09:05 PM

#2 (permalink)

Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 1,242

hand 1 is sick...you could def shove here because his frequency of AK is more than having a set or something? I'm a nit in these spots though and would probably just call.

hand 2 how often is AK folding here? I srsly have no clue 180 bb deep what i'd do with it. puke first so i kinda like shoving.

Family Cruise IMO

griffey24

11-15-2009, 09:10 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravageur

hand 2 how often is AK folding here? I srsly have no clue 180 bb deep what i'd do with it. puke first so i kinda like shoving.

After flop checks through, I'd imagine we can discount either player from having AK quite a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

meeloche

11-16-2009, 12:33 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

Hand 1 since it doesn't sound like this guy's a reg and I would expect to see AK a lot I'm thinking I may want to 3 bet the flop and expect him to never fold AQ or AJ even. As played I'd call but shoving can't be that bad if it is at all.

Hand 2 if they're paying attention they may not expect you to turn a good A high into a bluff on turn since you have some showdown value and they probably don't expect you to jam Kx multiway there. Good chance one of them has Kx or something and looks you up although I would be surprised if any of them have AK.

Numbr2intheWorld

11-16-2009, 01:24 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,561

Numbr2intheWorld will become famous soon enough

definitely call hand 1

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griffey24

11-16-2009, 02:04 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Massimo

definitely call hand 1

If the turn was the

would you still call?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

Numbr2intheWorld

11-16-2009, 03:02 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 3,561

id shove then, it really does look like AK.

I just think it's possible he has AQ-Jcc or AA or KK.

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nutsinho

11-16-2009, 07:47 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt

Posts: 3,280

shoving h1 would be insanely bad imo

in hand 2 i like betting pretty big

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

Marshall28

11-18-2009, 09:10 AM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 1,198

I'd definitely put a 3bet in on the flop in hand 1 ... thing is, with your read on this guy he's already shown you that you can't really count on him to build big pots for you when he has the initiative. Secondly, I would highly doubt he ever folds to a raise after c/MR in this spot. As played I'd shove since he's shown the propensity to bet smaller w/ marginal/medium strength hands like top pair and to call them down regardless of the board texture. With the read we have, I think it would be kinda silly not to shove TBH.

Hand 2, how can you be nearly 3 buy ins deep with all players in the hand and not have any dynamic going on ??? My only concern would be the squeezer having a hand like AA that thought the K would scare away his action so he decided not to bet the flop. The BB is almost always gonna have a hand like spades 56 or 9T imo, so I wouldn't worry about him. Even if the squeezer does have AK, I don't think it matters because he has to fold to a shove, unless hes a massive station. Also, FWIW, if I were to bet out on this turn, it would be specifically for the reason of shoving the river assuming no draws got there. Otherwise I think a better option would be to go for a c/r on the turn--if someone has a set or a hand they are willing to take to the felt, it's very very unlikely they will just flat the c/r, it's more likely they will just shove over you right there because of how strong you will appear. So if they call and the draws brick off, I think you have a much easier river shove and can expect a fold quite a bit more often. And, if it checks around, no prob, we get a free look at at least an 8 outer and maybe a ten outer.

meeloche

11-18-2009, 09:15 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

Second hand is 5/10 not 3/6 fyi.

IowaSkinsFan

11-19-2009, 03:01 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: 7,148

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Hand 2 i think one of them has KQ! Which is cool, shove.

Check out the new blog!!!

griffey24

11-23-2009, 02:50 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Hand 2 i think one of them has KQ! Which is cool, shove.

Good read. I pussied out, thinking someone probably hit Axss or some nonsense and was gonna stubborn call me, so I checked afer deliberating. BB (squeezer) had KQ and CO had JTss. Not sure if BB would call me or not, tough to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

dsmithpokerpro

12-11-2009, 08:09 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 9

i think you should have just fast played the first hand. i would have just raised again instead of call his raise. you probably would have gotten it all in because i don't see him folding big A. second hand i would just shut it down. i don't think a shove is that bad either. it really depends on your read.

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