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ugly spot in sunday million

  
 
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clarkatroid
Old 12-03-2007, 12:08 PM     Post subject: ugly spot in sunday million #1 (permalink)  
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no real reads. i called pre flop as i had the chips to do so and this is the sunday million, however i probably fold this hand most the time pre.

I nearly pooped my pants when this flop comes down, but then i get all frightened when he min raises me on the flop as i see this bet as incredibly strong, min raising into a multi-way pot, after utg bets out a sizable 2k and i overcall.

After the initial euphoria of flopping the dogs bollocks, i decided to try and keep this pot as small as i would be allowed, and to be honest, if he bets anymore i was going to fold up and puke.

how do you play this and am i being too cautious?




PokerStars Game #13610870734: Tournament #68172308 $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (200/400) - 2007/12/02 - 17:50:40 (ET)
Table '68172308 186' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: wiclefe (10950 in chips)
Seat 2: -Vacation_FU (11175 in chips)
Seat 3: clarkatroid (33450 in chips)
Seat 4: Mervelous (20100 in chips)
Seat 5: Laak39 (6925 in chips)
Seat 6: Dantes_11 (11200 in chips)
Seat 7: runner64 (7875 in chips)
Seat 8: JohnnyHanes (12400 in chips)
Seat 9: zman777 (11750 in chips)
runner64: posts small blind 200
JohnnyHanes: posts big blind 400

Holecards:
Dealt to clarkatroid [ AS 4S ]
FOLD zman777
CALL wiclefe, 400
FOLD -Vacation_FU
CALL clarkatroid , 400
CALL Mervelous, 400
FOLD Laak39
CALL Dantes_11, 400
CALL runner64, 200
CHECK JohnnyHanes:

Flop:
[7S 4D 4H ]
CHECK runner64:
CHECK JohnnyHanes:
BET wiclefe, 2000
CALL clarkatroid , 2000
RAISE Mervelous, 2400 to 4400
FOLD Dantes_11
FOLD runner64
FOLD JohnnyHanes
FOLD wiclefe
CALL clarkatroid , 2400

Turn:
[ 9D ]
CHECK clarkatroid :
CHECK Mervelous:

River:
[ 10H ]
CHECK clarkatroid :
BET Mervelous, 2000
CALL clarkatroid , 2000
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bode
Old 12-03-2007, 12:20 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 this is fine since youre trying to keep the pot small, but youre probably being over cautious. There are so many weak players in the sunday million and this is a worse 4 alot of the time. I might even make a small raise on the river since villain showed weekness by checking the turn and betting so small on the river.
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clarkatroid
Old 12-03-2007, 12:45 PM #3 (permalink)  
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i dont see him over limping a 4 in his position. although it is the sunday million, it would be very unusual for him to limp k4 suited etc here. also if i raise the river, and he re raises, im commited to the hand. it was the flop bet that triggered my cautiousness. i just didnt want to lose the majority of my stack here in a multi way limped pot when theres a real good chance im beat, and softer chip acculmulation is elsewhere. but, like i say im not sure of this hand at all
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Ash256
Old 12-03-2007, 02:36 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I think your hand's really underrepped. What reads have you got? Your hand looks like 56 or a retarded 88.
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bode
Old 12-03-2007, 02:46 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 if you make a small raise to like 8k here you can fold to a push w/ ~20k behind still.
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jackvance
Old 12-03-2007, 03:26 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 So basically you put him squarely on 77 on the flop? (if we discard the very unlikely 74).. and then he'd check the turn? I don't see how you can be beat here unless he backed into a boat with his 99/TT.
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bair
Old 12-03-2007, 04:02 PM #7 (permalink)  
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i dont understand how this is ugly. no way a boat checks behind on the turn and bets 2000 on river unless he hates value. as played i'd raise the river, but i'd be c/ring or leading the turn almost always, probably leading cuz this is a good spot for him to check back w/ A7,78,88,56,34.
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pocketfours
Old 12-03-2007, 09:35 PM     Post subject: Re: ugly spot in sunday million #8 (permalink)  
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 Your biggest mistake here is probably that you haven't been following the game closely enough if you don't have any reads. That said, I think you played this exceptionally well, for several reasons:

1. It's a multiway limped pot and nobody is trying to protect any initial bet. Nobody is willing to go broke lightly here (nobody decent that is).

2. You have a very nice stack, which you can use to your advantage in better spots than this one.

3. The board isn't very drawy, so you don't really need to protect your hand by raising.

4. By check/calling all the way you are allowing your opponent to bluff.

5. I don't think betting the turn or raising the river is going to get much money out of worse hands.

With position I might choose to play more aggressively, but I really like your line here. I also don't mind the idea of folding river to a huge bet. WP
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Ash256
Old 12-03-2007, 10:57 PM     Post subject: Re: ugly spot in sunday million #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
5. I don't think betting the turn or raising the river is going to get much money out of worse hands.

With position I might choose to play more aggressively, but I really like your line here. I also don't mind the idea of folding river to a huge bet. WP
Abstract question here.. If our hand is underrepped (as I think it is here, although feel free to correct me if you disagree), doesn't that leave a bit of a value debt? Shouldn't we be repping it neutrally at some point? (e.g. river in this case)
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clarkatroid
Old 12-03-2007, 11:03 PM #10 (permalink)  
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thnkx pocketfours. ive posted this elsewhere and you are the only person to favour my line. he did actually have 77.

which was a very strange and spewy way to play it on turn and river.

He missed tons of value and let me dictate the pot size oop.

thnks for replys folks as always
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pocketfours
Old 12-03-2007, 11:20 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkatroid
thnkx pocketfours. ive posted this elsewhere and you are the only person to favour my line. he did actually have 77.

which was a very strange and spewy way to play it on turn and river.

He missed tons of value and let me dictate the pot size oop.

thnks for replys folks as always
Spewy usually means overly aggressive. But yes, he probably didn't put you on a very big hand, which was a mistake.
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pocketfours
Old 12-03-2007, 11:34 PM     Post subject: Re: ugly spot in sunday million #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
5. I don't think betting the turn or raising the river is going to get much money out of worse hands.

With position I might choose to play more aggressively, but I really like your line here. I also don't mind the idea of folding river to a huge bet. WP
Abstract question here.. If our hand is underrepped (as I think it is here, although feel free to correct me if you disagree), doesn't that leave a bit of a value debt? Shouldn't we be repping it neutrally at some point? (e.g. river in this case)
I actually don't think that our hand is underrepresented, but that is certainly debatable.

I agree with your point though, underrepresenting a hand without the intention to trap is generally not optimal, but that's a thing to worry about in a cash game.
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Ash256
Old 12-04-2007, 01:57 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 I've been thinking about this hand a bit.. does villain's mistake stem from optimising his bets pessimistically towards the lower area of OP's range?
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 12-04-2007, 11:57 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 13k on flop shove turn, as played I bet out river. As played I raise river.
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pocketfours
Old 12-04-2007, 02:35 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
I've been thinking about this hand a bit.. does villain's mistake stem from optimising his bets pessimistically towards the lower area of OP's range?
Pretty much yes. Slowplaying the turn was quite pointless, but a common mistake.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 12-04-2007, 07:41 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 I don't think you should raise the flop after you called because it's so transparent, but you should definitely lead the turn and get it in. Your opponent only has 50BB, and more importantly his SPR is a little under 10 (SPR= stack-to-pot ratio, a term from Professional No Limit Holdem... which i recommend everyone should read). trip 4's A kicker is like the nuts here.
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clarkatroid
Old 12-04-2007, 08:00 PM #17 (permalink)  
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couple of posters here are relating to the villain having 50bbs, and because of that we should get in in here. although im not sure of my play,
i think this is cash game analogy and not really appropriate here. saying he has only 50bbs inferring he is short stacked is not appropiaite imo.

50bbs in mtts is huge stack

in a cash game, its goes in here, in a heart beat
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ilikeaces86
Old 12-05-2007, 02:26 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 You should change the title of your thread from ugly spot in sunday million to great spot. Raise flop then get it in from there....
 
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mcatdog
Old 12-05-2007, 03:18 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkatroid
i think this is cash game analogy and not really appropriate here. saying he has only 50bbs inferring he is short stacked is not appropiaite imo.

50bbs in mtts is huge stack

in a cash game, its goes in here, in a heart beat
This is a misconception. Tournaments have antes which means you should be playing more aggressively, trying to take down more pots and usually going broke with more hands than you would in a cash game. That's why people call them donkaments, people get all-in all the time.

This early in the tournament, it's completely irrelevant that 50 BB is an above average stack.
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clarkatroid
Old 12-05-2007, 11:59 AM #20 (permalink)  
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i disagree, I am far less likely to get it in here than in a cash game

When tackling a villain here with 50bbs in cash game, lose and reload without blinking.

i have picked up 30000 chips relatively easily so far, getting off to a really good start(unusual) sitting at a relatively soft table of unknown mostly satty qualifyers.

i got 75bbs, which is really really deep stacked, and i want to protect my position which factored into my play. i lose and i cannot reload, and i lose 2/3 my stack calling it off in an unraised pot, with ace 4

the antes have not yet kicked in. im definately 100% going bust here in a cash game with villain playing 50bbs, ie usually half a buy in.

i think most people would.
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sauce123
Old 12-05-2007, 12:36 PM #21 (permalink)  
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lol
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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badgers
Old 12-05-2007, 12:50 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Clark I think you basically just admitted you were playing with scared monies.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 12-05-2007, 05:35 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 You do realize on the flop you have the third nuts (essentially the 2nd nuts) and there are at least 15 hands that play this the same way for opp, and probably at least 8 that he stacks off with on that flop? 50bb in a cash game is the same as 50bb in a tournament (right?) Just the players play a whole lot more passively and tight, plus hands don't normally go past the flop because of such shallow stacks.
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pocketfours
Old 12-05-2007, 07:00 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 Sometimes it's like we can't even agree to disagree here damnit...

SO WHAT if it's the "second" nuts, we have five other players in the pot and 77 fits perfectly in their limping range. A minraise after a bet and a call from a middle position limper on this board looks like exactly 7c7d, 7c7h, 7h7d, 4c5c or ac4c.

Our equity against that range is a WHOPPING 28.6%.
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bigspenda73
Old 12-05-2007, 07:09 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 I hear it's hard to flop full houses
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 12-05-2007, 08:42 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Sometimes it's like we can't even agree to disagree here damnit...

SO WHAT if it's the "second" nuts, we have five other players in the pot and 77 fits perfectly in their limping range. A minraise after a bet and a call from a middle position limper on this board looks like exactly 7c7d, 7c7h, 7h7d, 4c5c or ac4c.

Our equity against that range is a WHOPPING 28.6%.
I hope you realize that range assesment is retarded.
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ilikeaces86
Old 12-05-2007, 09:27 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
You should change the title of your thread from ugly spot in sunday million to great spot. Raise flop then get it in from there....
Needs to be repeated.
 
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gabe
Old 12-05-2007, 10:12 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
You should change the title of your thread from ugly spot in sunday million to great spot. Raise flop then get it in from there....
Needs to be repeated.
ill help you out
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gabe
Old 12-05-2007, 10:13 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
You should change the title of your thread from ugly spot in sunday million to great spot. Raise flop then get it in from there....
Needs to be repeated.
yup
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pocketfours
Old 12-06-2007, 12:14 AM #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I hope you realize that range assesment is retarded.
Lol, someone needs argue in favor of this play, when everyone else is so much against it. Sometimes these threads seem to be meant for voting only and not for discussion.

This post is pretty worthless. Why don't you suggest another range instead? I think the range I suggested is completely reasonable against a tight villain who isn't willing to go broke lightly (like myself). What is your range here ISF, if you are villain?

It's also pointless to requote how this is an instashove wonderful value spot or whatever, when it's anyway only me and OP who think there is ANY merit whatsoever in slowing down here. I think we got your point.

I'm ranked in the 99.8th percentile by OPR, so I think it's fair to say I'm not a complete donk when it comes to mtt:s. I hate tourneys though.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 12-06-2007, 12:23 AM #31 (permalink)  
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 Yeah okay, I got out of line in my post. But I didn't like your range assesment at all.
1st thing I don't like about it is you're assuming opp is good, which clearly isn't the case because he minraised flop as well as limped in EP. Maybe in certain scenarios this could be percieved as a good play. Here I don't think it is.

His range is 64s, 54s, 43s, 88-AA, K4s, Q4s, 74s, A4o/s, 77 and maybe some random 7x that wants to see a cheap showdown. IMO. AA-88, 7x aren't as likely, but im not surprised if he shows up with them. Given that range i like a flop threebet.

When he checks behind the turn i'm 99% sure we're ahead, when he bets the river, the 9 or T didn't hit any of his range besides TT/99 so obviously we raise there.

Given that range we should threebet the flop
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pocketfours
Old 12-06-2007, 01:09 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
1st thing I don't like about it is you're assuming opp is good, which clearly isn't the case because he minraised flop as well as limped in EP. Maybe in certain scenarios this could be percieved as a good play. Here I don't think it is.
I don't think there is anything wrong with limping sc's and pp's after two other limpers. Limping behind is my preferred play with 77 in this spot (short stacked tourney). Am I wrong here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
His range is 64s, 54s, 43s, 88-AA, K4s, Q4s, 74s, A4o/s, 77 and maybe some random 7x that wants to see a cheap showdown. IMO. AA-88, 7x aren't as likely, but im not surprised if he shows up with them. Given that range i like a flop threebet.
Sure, assume a donk and this hand is a very obvious insta-shove. Assume a tight regular high stakes player and you are busted. That's the big question I guess. I always check the stats on all villains in HS tourneys so I don't have to play this guessing game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
When he checks behind the turn i'm 99% sure we're ahead
It's ridiculous how common slowplaying is in tournaments. If a turn check makes you so sure, then it seems slowplaying against you is the correct way to go. Funny that you say 99%, even when you know that OP was behind.

I do agree that leading river is better though (b/f). I never said that OP chose the best possible line, but I really don't mind that he was slowing down.

BTW I really think the HS forum shouldn't include tourneys at all, we have almost never had any good discussions about tourney hands here.
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sauce123
Old 12-06-2007, 11:23 AM #33 (permalink)  
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p4s- 77 is definitely a limp here. 77 also has infinitely more value than A4dd. If you are not willing to get your stack in on flops that you absolutely gin its not correct to be calling A4dd imo.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 12-06-2007, 01:19 PM #34 (permalink)  
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bigslikk
Old 12-06-2007, 05:22 PM #35 (permalink)  
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Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is most likely.

Which is the more likely scenario, after the turn check:

1. He's got crap and you're winning.

2. Even though you have no reads, his check, though normally a display of weakness, in this case represents the absolute godlike nuts of Olympus, and while betting the nuts in a big pot is oftentimes a good idea, he KNEW that you knew that, and therefore played in a nonsensical way, hoping to lay an elaborate trap on the river. He plays the nuts passively and terribly.

Most the time it's number one. Just because your assumptions turned out to be true doesn't mean that they were good ones.
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jackvance
Old 12-06-2007, 10:10 PM #36 (permalink)  
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 Well normally I'd try to get as much of my stack in there as possible. But there was that read that you got that it was super strenght (ie, 77).. can't really argue with following your reads.

And having a big stack in a tourney is def not something to triffe with.. you can bulley a lot of small pots with that so it's very very different from a similar situation in cash.
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TheFaucet
Old 12-07-2007, 03:47 PM #37 (permalink)  
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you are weak
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clarkatroid
Old 12-10-2007, 02:45 AM #38 (permalink)  
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i immediate instincts here were to discard any 4 from his range, leaving me with 77 and only 77.

in hindsight, only realistic 4 in his range is therefore 54s. i dont go with the q4s k4s 74s etc combos at all. in my experience people dont overlimp much from mp with these hands. 77 fits the bill much much more

so he got 77 or 54s

anyways thanks for all the responses. it provoked a huge debate which im quite chuffed about. lol.

especially faucets kind and insightful words. please post more, rivetting reading
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donkbee
Old 12-10-2007, 03:08 AM #39 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkatroid
especially faucets kind and insightful words. please post more, rivetting reading



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Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
 
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