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Halv
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04-10-2007, 08:32 PM
Post subject: TPTK vs huge open shove
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#1 (permalink)
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Weee, my first posted hand in HSNL  . SB is 46/32 over 500 datamined hands. Flop Afreq is 44. Haven't seen any big hands by him, and haven't seen him raise 8x preflop before. I've been playing pretty straightforward TAG.
- Is this an instacall? If so for what x does a call with Ax here become spew?
Party Poker
$5/$10 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter
Stack Sizes
SB: $1415
Hero (BB): $1367
UTG: $1190.75
MP: $475.75
CO: $250
BTN: $1889.75
Preflop: Hero is dealt K A ($15, 6 Players)
3 folds, BTN calls $10, SB raises to $80, Hero calls $70, BTN folds
Flop: 9 9 A ($180, 2 Players)
SB goes all-in for $1330
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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The fact this this seems like an instacall (but I would get squeamish around AJ) plus he has not played this way before (bigger than normal PFR, silly open shove) sets off my spidey sense.
He's a 46/32, playing 5/10. Unless he's just a gambling lunatic (that you happen to have 500 datamined hands on?). There is no way you can play with those PF numbers without knowning you have a crazy image and using it.
I just have to believe that he thinks you will call with an A. If he's trying to bluff you off an ace here, why bet 10x pot? If you had some kinda TJs/88 hand you might call with PF, why not just bet 360? You still can't call w/out an ace, and he risks 1000 less.
So, I think he has a hand that can stand a call from an ace. I would believe a combo draw, but none is possible. I think he has a 9 or AK or even A9/AA (that 8x PFR is wierd too).
To take it to the next level - this could be a bluff that's never a bluff. So, maybe it's just air.
It boils down to how wierd is is 8x raise. BU *limps* which is weird. Villain raise 8x instead of say 5x. Hero flat calls - with BTN to act (and will be squeeze if BU calls).
I could go either way on that preflop. He could be reading both of you as weak (him for open limping you for just calling) and making a move.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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If you are new to that 5/10 NL game, I think that this is very often a bluff. A good (even not so good) maniac will very often pounce on unknowns (or knowns from lower levels) because they are more often playing with scared money or too small a roll and won't call here without AA/9x.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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That's almost the perfect board for a call. I cannot think of anything this dude has besides KK/QQ/JJ/TT/AK/AQ/AJ but then his numbers suggest that it might be not even that strong. Hence call.
P.S. low-limit grinder so advise to be taken with a grain of salt.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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This could be a misclick.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I think he has a 9, but meh.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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first impression was to fold if the guy was even a little bit sane.
btw, how do you not 3-bet this pre? I mean I know it's an oversized raise but you have this guy's range crushed and you'd be thrilled to get it allin pre; you can make a slightly smaller then pot raise and have bet sizes line up very favorably for you post-flop.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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i think you have to call.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Instafold. This kind of move can mean whatever, but with the given pot-odds this should be a clear fold (since you haven't seen villain push like this before). Also no-brainer reraise preflop. In a reraised pot a call could be considered.
He might easily have made the raise with SC and now has trips. He could be trying to rep a flushdraw and hopes that you will call with an ace. He might also have AK. He is hoping that you belong t0 the group of players who is happy to loose his whole stack with TP.
You have to make the conclusion that no half-sane player would push 1330 into a 170 pot with this flop with only a weak ace, PP or a draw.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by silu_nz
That's almost the perfect board for a call.
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Nonsense, this is a good flop to overbet a set against a weak player who is likely to have an ace.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I just would hope that a player this bad isn't going to second level you.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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is anyone condering the player behind us? does he just automatically when a $4200 pot when he has a 9??
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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WTF is up with not 3betting pre against this player. it just makes me wanna kick something.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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If a guy makes a suspicious shove for 5 times the pot and your hand is easily in the top 1/5 of your range, you should at least think about calling, shouldn't you? I realize that this isn't directly relevant, but really, if this is a fold what hand can we have here that we'd call with, quads? Would you call an 8BB raise here with T9s?
Gabe - other dude folded pre
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Reidak
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 566
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This situation is avoided when you reraise preflop. this flop comes out, now you have a bigger pot, you opponent has less chips, so your getting a much better proposition, and a much easier call. If he has a 9, oh well, you got the best of it preflop, and most of the time youll be having the best of it postflop. With this line. its a meh. Everyone is lost on this one.
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
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As it turned out, I thought for a while and then called. My reasoning was something like this: the only hands that can possibly call this bet is 9x and big aces, and most of these hands will play a big pot very often without him having to chase out all the worse hands that might pay off at least one regular-ish bet. So this huge overbet really didnt make sense with a monster. Even if he's a good player capable of exploiting his image here, wouldn't a flop b/3b shove or bet flop/shove turn line make more sense?
I glanced at his stats again and decided he was probably a donk, and that if he'd outleveled me then I'd pay off.
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I didn't 3-bet pre as I didn't want to get 4-bet with 135 BB stacks, because I wasn't sure if I wanted to get it in pf here. I'm okay with playing a big pot postflop if I hit TPTK+ in position against this type of player that will probably keep betting into me to push me off my probable weak TP. Given his lagtard stats I should probably be very happy with getting in pre, though.
Another reason for flat calling is that I wanted to keep the button in the hand as he seemed very spewy, with stats similar to the SB. I guess I should've mentioned this in the OP. I'd be happy sitting in between two maniacal players so that if I hit the flop I can hopefully sneak my stack in between their bets and raises. I'd be ok with playing a huge pot on a lot of flops against the both of them, especially since my hand is very under-represented.
By the way, if I reraise preflop in this excact spot and he open shoves for what, 5x the pot, isn't that in fact a more difficult situation (or rather, an easier fold) as my range is now highly tilted towards big aces?
All that being said, a pf 3bet with AK is my standard play. But lately I've been giving more thought to the reason for reraising pre, and one of the specific things that I've been pondering is "Though reraising preflop is +EV in itself, can it be more +EV to get to play postflop in position with a hand that is a) likely stronger than his, or b) well hidden the times I hit". Thoughts?
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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So what did opp have?
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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OK, thinly veiled brag post!
As for you last point... I have been wondering how necessary is it (at various levels) vs. different types of opponents to 3-bet light/4-bet with 100BB stacks or generally to get more money in pre-flop. Don't we have a bigger edge post flop against a typical player? I would just rather play small ball, especially in position. OOP, there is a very good case for 3 betting good hands, and hence you have to balance by 3-betting light (against anyone paying attention).
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Lol, I wasn't trying to make a brag post. That's why I didn't post results, because I wanted to get some feedback on my thought process. A brag post should contain more than a single hand and preferably pix of boobies.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Yeah i like your reasoning, i really wouldnt give a donk opp credit for out thinking you.
Also, you should learn that felting AK with around 100BB stakcs versus a donk opp is STD.
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Harry
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philly
Posts: 722
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My instinct says call.
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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seoul_child1
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 176
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I like the CALL here, NH Halv.
I'm almost sure Villain has AQ
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phantom_lord
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 349
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I think I'd call here.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
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OK HALV TELL US
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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VILLAIN WAS ME I HAD QUADS NINES
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by seoul_child1
I'm almost sure Villain has AQ
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Bingo bango. Are you the villain, did zook tell you, or are you the god of hand reading?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I told no one. NO ONE.
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