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Numbr2intheWorld
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01-19-2010, 01:02 AM
Post subject: tough spot with AA against aejones
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I've played with aejones a bit and nothing ive seen him do is really relevant to this hand. I took a read from that other thread that he rrs polarized so i thought flatting here was pretty good pre. I have a dilemma here because i think that betsize on the flop is probably not strong i have a hunch he's just not gonna c/f much here even though some players would. My hand is purely a bluff catcher but i do have blockers to a nut flush and a straight.
His river shove was pretty fast. Just like a second and then shove.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($1749)
UTG ($485)
MP ($1015)
CO ($3387)
Hero (Button) ($1311)
SB ($1000)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A , A
3 folds, Hero bets $30, SB raises to $100, 1 fold, Hero calls $70
Flop: ($210) 10, 8 , Q (2 players)
SB bets $100, Hero calls $100
Turn: ($410) K (2 players)
SB bets $200, Hero calls $200
River: ($810) 4 (2 players)
SB bets $600 (All-In), Hero
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I'd fold and I'd probably fold a non club river. Interesting hand though, but I like playing it the way you did.
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TonyB73
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 414
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In the spirit of trying to learn, why wouldn't you raise the flop here? Its a pretty wet flop and and you're not behind much.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Why do you think it's better to flat aces IP against a polarized 3bet range? Doesn't make sense to me. Makes even less sense that you would let his polarized garbage get there postflop.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Raising the flop is fine, flatting is just as good if not better as it strengthens your flatting range which contains a lot of weak hands that don't want to stack off and keeps your range wide.
I agree with p4's though if someone is 3betting polarized you would be more inclined to 4bet pre. If they are 3betting linearly you'd be more inclined to flat.
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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did someone delete my post? (or did it not post - i think I looked at it!)
If so it was genuine comment/question and not meant to be offensive or anything. Apologies if it was taken like that or not welcome from a $50nler.
I wouldn't normally post in HS but i'm really trying to improve my game at the moment so am reading alot and posting comments/questions I feel appropriate.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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what? if he had AQ or 99, or TT in his range i'd expect him to get those in after he 3bet. But if i assume he doesnt im just praying he spews if i 4bet. especially if someone is cbetting most flops and playing aggressively its pretty sick to have AA here. It's not like im gonna flat every flop.
I think flop raising kind of sucks too. I think his flop betsize is incredibly polarized and like i said i thought it was more likely a bluff. I feel like shoving the turn is better than raising the flop... but im not sure if i should do either.
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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I agree that it's better to flat here if he's polarized rather than balanced. You're going to get be making more vs the garbage in his range by flatting, I assume he is going to be betting most flops and you'll make more there as opposed to the amount of times he is going to ship over a 4 bet.
If his range is balanced then he is shipping over a 4 bet a lot more.
Post flop it seems too simplistic to just say if he had a strong made hand he'd bet bigger so his range is weighted towards draws, i'm sure he has no problems with balancing his range here. You have a lot of draws in your range, and he still shoves the river....kind of a leveling spot. He knows you know he knows you can have a flush a lot, so he expects you to fold, etc?
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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I think river's a fold, but I don't get why raising the flop can be bad. I understand ISF's point that by doing this we're strengthening our flatting range in 3-bet pots, but is this the board to do it on? It seems like villain's going to be reshipping so many hands that caught pieces of this board and draws that it's overthinking it to flat here. This also seems like a horrible board for him to bluff on so I feel like we're not getting that many two barrels out of him on th turn with his air (though the turn ends up being the nut 2-barrel card).
This is definitely a cool hand though, thx for posting.
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Family Cruise IMO
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Do you guys have any recent 3 betting or 4 betting dynamic? If not I think I would rather 4 bet pre.
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ShadyCardPlayer
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Definite 4 bet PF. This hand was played poorly no "if, ands, or buts" about it. Trying to slow play Aces PF is only going to bite you in the ass. You have to re-raise the SB preflop and on that flop. I see a possible Kx Jx flush draw that got there. His bet sizing is 1/2 pot on the flop and turn and 2/3 on the river, If he/you had something strong on the flop you'd have to commit yourself to a pot sized bet due to the draw heavy flop.
Do you have any stats on him?
You have to fold on the river, you're not ahead of much.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I dont get why anyone thinks that a good player is gonna reship light on a flop raise here. AQ? yeah right. And definitely not a bare J or 9. the FDs he'll ship will be combos probably. People dont go crazy here with no history.
I think preflop is really just whatever floats your boat. I'm gonna make a good amount of money 4betting here But im also gonna make good money calling.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
I dont get why anyone thinks that a good player is gonna reship light on a flop raise here. AQ? yeah right. And definitely not a bare J or 9. the FDs he'll ship will be combos probably. People dont go crazy here with no history.
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I'm calling major shenanigans on this post. How exactly are you exploiting ae mfking jones by flatting here on the flop?
While we're at it, I'm snippety snap fistpump instaclick calling that river. I can't even imagine the amount of torment in me if he would check the river and I would have to check behind.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
I think preflop is really just whatever floats your boat. I'm gonna make a good amount of money 4betting here But im also gonna make good money calling.
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Yeah yeah preflop is fine whatever meh obviously. I was just saying that I thought your logic for flatting was incorrect and wanted you to rethink it.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Flatting is just a bit better than raising the flop. I don't think raising the flop is some suicide -EV play, its +EV but not as +EV as flatting IMO. When AE or any good player bets this flop on this texture your not going to see a lot of turn c/fing, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you never see a turn check. He gets it in with a lighter range if we call.
There also may be times where he bets the flop and turn but checks the river with a strong hand worse than AA and snaps our river shove because we have so little nut hands in our range at that point.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Why do you think it's better to flat aces IP against a polarized 3bet range? Doesn't make sense to me. Makes even less sense that you would let his polarized garbage get there postflop.
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I'm slowplaying into a player who surely will cbet tons of flops (and play very aggressively most likely) and AA isn't likely to get sucked out on.
Yeah sometimes im gonna go broke with the worst hand but if you look at the spectrum of hands and situations and every possible outcome that might happen im gonna make a lot of money when i wouldnt have if i ended the hand early.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Montreal
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I'd be surprised if his standard bet on the wettest of flops is less than half pot!!!! I'd raise this all day with air, and prob should do it a decent amount with AA too. Kinda different if he makes it 180$ its hard to rep air, so call makes alot more sense then.
Although I kinda agree with Max that he usually has air given betsize. I'd snap call any non club river, but on this river meh, prob still call.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
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ESS123
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 52
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i dont c why you think his betsize is polarizing... flatting pre is fine. raise flop but flatting is fine too, fold now
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The surest way to end a gambling career is to gamble.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Flatting is just a bit better than raising the flop. I don't think raising the flop is some suicide -EV play, its +EV but not as +EV as flatting IMO. When AE or any good player bets this flop on this texture your not going to see a lot of turn c/fing, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you never see a turn check. He gets it in with a lighter range if we call.
There also may be times where he bets the flop and turn but checks the river with a strong hand worse than AA and snaps our river shove because we have so little nut hands in our range at that point.
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I don't think it's a very bad plan as long as it doesn't include any folding. As some sort of pot control plan I just don't like it.
A big problem is that any club, nine, jack or queen will substantially lower our equity or make it very difficult to get any more value from worse hands.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Why do you think it's better to flat aces IP against a polarized 3bet range? Doesn't make sense to me. Makes even less sense that you would let his polarized garbage get there postflop.
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I'm slowplaying into a player who surely will cbet tons of flops (and play very aggressively most likely) and AA isn't likely to get sucked out on.
Yeah sometimes im gonna go broke with the worst hand but if you look at the spectrum of hands and situations and every possible outcome that might happen im gonna make a lot of money when i wouldnt have if i ended the hand early. |
I already said that I don't mind preflop at all.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Yeah yeah preflop is fine whatever meh obviously. I was just saying that I thought your logic for flatting was incorrect and wanted you to rethink it.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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there is absolutely nothing to decipher from his flop betsize. i like the way you got to the river and now i think it is fairly close what to do. I actually think he would lean towards betting every street with AK, and any bluff that he decides to double he will be tripling on all low rivers. I still expect to be beat considerably more than half the time but I think you can call.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
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pfft call, 2.3 to 1 mothafuuucka
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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tstrout
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2010
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It sounds like aejones has gotten inside everyone's heads here  If this guy is so good and so tricky, blunt force trauma and low SPR situations are the most profitable to avoid getting outplayed. Hence, a reraise to 250-350 gets the SPR down such that the flop is basically irrelevant and you can just get in all your money. I know the goal is to stack him with your Aces, but if he's that tricky, you're not going to, so you need to get him to fold preflop (and send him a message that he doesn't get to 3-bet your button raises which is a profitable message to send to a tricky player) or basically commit his whole stack preflop against your obviously better hand (to us, not him).
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstrout
It sounds like aejones has gotten inside everyone's heads here If this guy is so good and so tricky, blunt force trauma and low SPR situations are the most profitable to avoid getting outplayed. Hence, a reraise to 250-350 gets the SPR down such that the flop is basically irrelevant and you can just get in all your money. I know the goal is to stack him with your Aces, but if he's that tricky, you're not going to, so you need to get him to fold preflop (and send him a message that he doesn't get to 3-bet your button raises which is a profitable message to send to a tricky player) or basically commit his whole stack preflop against your obviously better hand (to us, not him). |
this is bad advice. you dont want to just get the SPR down to make an easy flop play, you want to do the most profitable thing.
" I know the goal is to stack him with your Aces, but if he's that tricky, you're not going to"
what does that mean?? its probably not correct so be careful with your words
the reasons you list for 4 betting (sending a message and getting him to commit his stack) are pretty weak
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
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btw he ended up having j7cc for the rivered flush.
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FTR Bad Beat
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 38
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Fold too many possibilites you are beat. I think a reraise pre would have been better.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTR Bad Beat
Fold too many possibilites you are beat. I think a reraise pre would have been better.
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How many possibilities are there that youre not beat?!
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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I think you should raise the flop while there are so many combinations he auto- gets in.
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