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Micro2Macro
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09-05-2010, 01:01 AM
Post subject: Thoughts on 'Blue Book'
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#1 (permalink)
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I considered posting this in the commune or SHNL but didn't want a bunch of busto's spamming the thread. Plus given the books cost and target market I figure posting here would be best. If you don't play mid-high stakes you are certainly welcome to post in this thread, but please put care into not derailing the discussion.
The book I am talking about is by 'shoota', a well respected Leggo pro. In case anyone hasn't heard of this one, check out the link below:
Blue Book for SALE! and More - LeggoPoker
Now I don't know everything about this guy and perhaps someone can fill in the blanks of his 'qualifications'. But according to his PTR he only regulates 5/10: LOLOLOLOLOL Poker Player Ranking and Stats at Full Tilt Poker.
It is possible (and likely) he is playing across multiple sites (and PTR doesn't catch everything) but so far the information is unknown. If someone can add in any missing information that would be great because so far I'm not sold on this book.
So here we have a good player who has beaten 5/10 6max games over a couple hundred thousand hands and now wants to charge 2.5 buyins per book ($2500). This seems a bit excessive. Now I understand that ebooks are expensive and that the target market (i.e. someone rolled for 5/10 or 10/20) isn't going to care much about putting up the cash for this. My issue with this book is I have a feeling it is massively overhyped. He is charging $2500 (more than Baluga Whale or Cole south have charged for their books) and he hasn't proven himself to beat games higher than 5/10. This also is a bit weird because if THIS guy can charge $2500 for a book, players like Sauce, ISF or Nutsinho should be able to charge >$5000 or even $10000 for a book.
Regardless for someone whos playing 400nl-1000nl personal coaching is probably way more valuable than this. For someone playing 1000nl+ I'm sure they won't really think to hard about the purchase given how little money it is relative to their bankrolls (may not be that smart of an idea though). For the rest, I imagine this book will be bootlegged and distributed to those playing as low as 10nl. Even if you do play >1000nl and can easily afford the book, there is probably no sense in buying it because you clearly already will understand/know all the content the book holds.
Now this is just my opinion, but this guy hasn't shown he is worthy of charging this much money for a 150 page poker book. Of course if he lowered his price to say, 1 buyin ($1000) he would probably reach out to more midstakes players. Then again, he only needs to sell 100 copies and he's 1/4 of the way there to having a million dollar product. These E-books have to be the closest thing to a scam in poker aside from Vanessa Selbst's group coaching thing in vegas during the wsop.
Also I think it's hilarious that at the same time of him releasing his book he talks about test driving as Maserati in his blog :P
Thoughts?
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
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all i can really say is at the end of the day most of us play to make money and by the same concept of "if i dont stack this tilting degen then someone else will" goes hand in hand with "well if i don't write a book and try to make some variance free money someone else will"
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I found this the other day: The 2+2 Forum Archives: **Official uNL/SSNL Coaching Thread**
Haven't read much of the thread but it's old and fees recommended him. This makes me believe that at one point he probably had much more appealing results.
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Micro2Macro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
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cool, I imagine he's been around for quite some time so recent tracking sites aren't going to show the big picture.
nonetheless his results are very impressive, yet I really don't think they justify a book carrying a $2500 price tag. like I said before I think most players would get more out of personal coaching as opposed to the book if they had to choose an investment given he's probably an excellent coach.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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He's a really good 6 max player. I don't see why he feels he can charge more than CTS but I personally did not like CTS's book. Balugawhale's book was great though.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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If someone wants to spend $2500 on the book why can't he?
This is the same thought process that people who are against online poker have, that somehow, having this book, for sale, at a relatively high price is preying upon "innocent" people.
maybe you didn't really mean this but had to say it anyway. I think most of us are spoiled by the low cost of coaching and videos but yeah, i personally wouldnt buy this book
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
If someone wants to spend $2500 on the book why can't he?
This is the same thought process that people who are against online poker have, that somehow, having this book, for sale, at a relatively high price is preying upon "innocent" people.
maybe you didn't really mean this but had to say it anyway. I think most of us are spoiled by the low cost of coaching and videos but yeah, i personally wouldnt buy this book
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I didn't mean to come off as this being an example of 'preying on innocent people'. I just think it's a huge joke this guy is charging $2500 for his book and would be shocked if anyone who doesn't have excess money laying around would invest in it. If someone wants to buy this book they can go right ahead. Or they could wait for someone to just distribute it via PDF for free. Like I said I'm not sold on this book but if anyone can provide additional info about author that would justify the price then perhaps my opinion would shift directions.
I agree we are spoiled by low cost of coaching and videos - especially videos. It's like $30 a month to be a member of a top training site and the amount of information and guidance you can gain from being a member at such a site is tremendous relative to the cost. It's surprising that they actually don't charge more given that most players who are signed up wouldn't mind paying an extra $10, $15, even $20 extra a month. (perhaps I should keep my mouth shut here  )
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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srry I was reading this post drunk
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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ive read like every poker book ever written, and only think 5 or so are good. i think CTS's and baluga's are particularly bad relative to how much praise they have gotten...
i liked mathematics of poker the best, theory of poker, supersystem is ok, ace on the river is cool, i cant think of another one actually ..
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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I liked bobbo, but im with sauce on the cts/baluga books. Haven't read shootaa.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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bobbo was definitely the best of the ebooks, i agree.
these things tend to get dated quickly though
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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Shoota is a v good 6 max player, played with him a fair bit and started games with him at 5/10, he's definitely far better than baluga whale. Now I can't really comment on the price of his e book as I feel most are fairly over priced but given the relative cost of similar books I don't feel he's out of line charging that much.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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gabe
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ebook prices are so dumb. when you buy a normal book, whats to stop you from selling it to a used book store for pennies or just giving it away? is there any reason this book should be classified differently? if not i suggest buying and splitting it with people.
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vaks
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 329
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I would love to get my hands on this book for next to nothing .......
or even baluga or any of the other ebooks
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaks
I would love to get my hands on this book for next to nothing .......
or even baluga or any of the other ebooks
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talk to SIN in IRC
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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Those books are available, you just need to ask the right people. I want the new one too.
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StarGrinder
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 585
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I've never paid full price for anything CS, Seidman or Tri has written. They're all fantastic books in their own right but paying that much for ANY book is ape shit insane. And placing relevance on the price compared to one's respective bankroll is nonsense. But if you think it's worth it, then by all means go for it. You could honestly get much more out of say 20 hours of 1-on-1 coaching for $2500. As far as whether this guy is worthy or not, if the book is about beating the game up to 5/10, then I really don't see a problem since he's put in a few 100k winning hands there. Just my 2 cents...
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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All I can say is that you don't have to kill a stake to be superior at presenting information. Some of the best teachers can't succeed in their profession to the highest degree, but can help other do so. Conversely some of the greatest professionals can't teach or relay their ideas/thought processes for shit either. I doubt Sklansky or Ed Miller could beat 5-10NL online for much, but they still present insightful and revolutionary material in a way that poker laymen can understand.
That said, I would never spend $2,500 on any poker book.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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sklansky plays pretty damn well, i dont know why he gets so much sht
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
sklansky plays pretty damn well, i dont know why he gets so much sht
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probably because he limps occasionally (I assume after reading his book) and everyone who likes to wave their cock around looks down upon it.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
sklansky plays pretty damn well, i dont know why he gets so much sht
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It's because 95% of poker professionals are terrible at evaluating the abilities other poker players.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
It's because 95% of poker professionals are terrible at evaluating the abilities other poker players.
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Try 99.9%
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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I have a pretty simple system for evaluating products like this. Will you make your money back plus some extra? So if this book is aimed at people playing 5/10, then the question is simply, will I win more than 2.5 buyins above what I would have won anyway if I read this book?
Obviously that doesn't apply as well to noobs wanting to get the secrets of the high level players, but thats not the target audience.
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Just playing to improve.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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but what if you'd make 2.3 re reading theory of poker?
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Micro2Macro
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I think I'm going to re-read that one soon myself. It's been awhile since I have so I imagine I would get more out of it with another read. Thanks for the idea drmcboy.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
but what if you'd make 2.3 re reading theory of poker?
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read both?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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I agree that the best way to get better at poker is to read everything, watch every video and get every coach while playing a ton of hands. And reviewing your own play. But given that's impossible I think it's interesting to discuss how you make those decisions.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
I agree that the best way to get better at poker is to read everything, watch every video and get every coach while playing a ton of hands. And reviewing your own play. But given that's impossible I think it's interesting to discuss how you make those decisions.
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yea i mean i agree and actually think its without a doubt what prevents most players from progressing; they dont know how to study. its something that i am working on figuring out as when i graduate this winter i am going to put my full efforts back into poker.
i am just going to ramble for a bit about my thoughts and would be interested to see what other people think
i would argue that books, especially the newer ones, are some of the better resources available. they are trying to be incredibly thorough which is something that isnt really possible with forum posts, videos, etc., so they are more of a one-stop source of a lot of information. however, to get much out of them, as with any book, you cant just really sit back and read it. you need to dissect the book and really think about every concept.
the limiting factor with most books, isnt really time available, but money available. a good approach would probably be to select a few that are highly rated and apply to what you are trying to focus on. i definitely dont think it comes down to a one or the other type of approach.
as far as videos, im really not sure what their role is from an efficiency standpoint and would like to hear peoples thoughts about them. i do feel pretty strongly that the way they are currently used [incredibly passively] is far from optimal though.
i think coaching is incredibly important, but i think the most important application of it is not necessarily with the for-hire coaches but instead the players that are better than you that act as your mentor. having somebody discuss concepts with you at a high level is incredibly important and why most of the guys that you see at a high level are those that have very close friends who they are constantly discussing things with to suppliment what work they are doing on their own.
to progress at anything in an efficient manner, you need somebody to guide you along the way. having people at your similar level to discuss concepts with is also important, and ideally at some point you wont have too many people at a much higher level than you, so you will need peers to work with to build on that knowledge. but i mean, poker is no different from anything, you cant expect to get better without putting in the effort, and most players do almost no actual studying so a discussion of how to study is probably more important than what book to read.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I think the problem most poker players have (I know I do), is that we play poker because its fun, so we really resent doing poker related activities that aren't fun. This is probably the wrong forum to discuss this because most of the valid posters have either overcome this, or do enjoy doing what the rest of us don't. I think that's why video sites are so popular. It is fun to watch some pro destroy high limits and imagine we're actually learning something. It isn't nearly as much fun to pause/rewind/review while watching that video. To stop and work through similar yet different scenarios and try to apply the same logic. To jump into HEM and find the spots where we've faced similar decisions and review our play. That stuffs work, not fun. And that's with nice pretty video to engage us, now imagine reading a book? Its enough to just plow through it, let alone study it.
At the end of the day, most of us would prefer to play poker, than to study poker. I think for most people, that's the main hurdle to overcome. Whether its by scheduling specific hours to do it in, or making a commitment to do a certain amount of study either before or after each session. Then the next step is making that study actual study. Not just reading or watching vids, but taking notes and running through scenarios.
Probably the main reason I've never gotten coaching, is that I don't believe that at my stage of development, that anyone can teach more more than I'd learn from actual self study. To use my example above of a learning expense paying for itself, a cost of approximately a buyin per hour just can't compete with reviewing items I already own (eg studying ToP properly).
I guess to address Dr's question, I'd pick the one I felt gave me the best return as some kind of personal balance between percentage return and dollar return. For me, I'd get a lot more value out of re-reading ToP. If someone feels they've gotten almost as much as they can out of that though, then its probably worth looking at more expensive options as long as they think there's a positive return.
Maybe looked at another way, rather than a 'one or the other' choice, I'd prioritize them, along with other options.
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Just playing to improve.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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whipped up a list on this topic, check er out !
LeggoPoker - sauce123
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Uns0Lved
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High Card
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1
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Who has a scan of this for sale?
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ZwiFT
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Valuebet/fold
Posts: 777
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elohel first post
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tomaszek99
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High Card
Join Date: Nov 2011
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If someone is interested, I currently have a copy of this book, and I'm willing to sell it way below the originally offered price, if interested pm me.
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02-03-2012, 11:15 AM Alan Meltzer Left $1.5 Million to his Chauffeur and Doorman
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