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Numbr2intheWorld
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11-10-2008, 04:27 PM
Post subject: Rethinking a spot vs Aggressive player 5/10
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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Villain is Deldar182, a very aggressive player who plays up to 25/50, imo one of the best 6-max players at 5/10 and 10/20. In this specific spot i expect him to be bluff raising this flop frequently, and i doubt he's raising for value with worse ever (but its a slight possibility). Also, all the Q's he'd flat with preflop are better than mine and i'm guessing he's flatting AQ instead of reraising most of the time. Anyways, onto the spot. I'm interested in an overall plan here.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($756)
BB ($1000)
UTG ($458.25)
Hero (MP) ($1120)
Button ($3057)
Preflop: Hero is MP with Q , 10
1 fold, Hero raises to $30, Button calls $30, 2 folds
Flop: ($75) 8, Q , Q (2 players)
Hero bets $50, Button raises to $130, Hero
My thoughts later
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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since I don't have much experience on how aggro 10/20 donks like to throw down, wouldn't your goal be to run the bluffiest line possible? I say throw in 333 american dollars.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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lol wow very similar hand to the one I just posted.
I'm interested that you think he is bluff raising frequently here. Surely this is a bad spot for him to bluff because of simple combinatorics and he would know this and can't expect you to fold much?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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wa/wb imo so no value raising. I would call here and c/c down.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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I don't think you should choose a line that will help you figure out if he has you beat. You should choose a line that makes him put his stack in with the widest possible range. CiB?
If your image is very solid, then your options are pretty limited. B/c flop + c/f turn + c/c river isn't absurd although I wouldn't do it myself.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
wa/wb imo so no value raising. I would call here and c/c down.
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P4's theorem: Never b/c + c/c + c/c. Don't do it.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
wa/wb imo so no value raising. I would call here and c/c down.
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P4's theorem: Never b/c + c/c + c/c. Don't do it. |
I'm definitely starting to believe in p4's theorem.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
wa/wb imo so no value raising. I would call here and c/c down.
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P4's theorem: Never b/c + c/c + c/c. Don't do it. |
Can we elaborate on P4's theorum. I mean I know its a pretty passive line, but it also maximizes the most against really aggro/bluffy players.
I mean this is a similar spot for sure to what Irish just posted, except the board is a little bit more coordinated where he might have insiders. So there's a little bit more merit to making a small 3-bet here and hoping he monkey jams.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Hmmm, the thing is your flop betting range is so polarized here, that you essentially need to find ways to bluff, especially if he's raising that flop a lot. Essentially the only way to bluff here is to threebet the flop, and you should be doing that with a lot of your range I think. Especially since you can build an extremely favorable SPR with a small raise.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
P4's theorem: Never b/c + c/c + c/c. Don't do it.
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Plz elaborate. And what's your line if hero has JJ here?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hmmm, the thing is your flop betting range is so polarized here, that you essentially need to find ways to bluff, especially if he's raising that flop a lot. Essentially the only way to bluff here is to threebet the flop, and you should be doing that with a lot of your range I think. Especially since you can build an extremely favorable SPR with a small raise.
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Oh this is the comment i was looking for.
I think a better way to bluff is call flop and lead some amount on the turn.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
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Location: Toronto'ish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hmmm, the thing is your flop betting range is so polarized here, that you essentially need to find ways to bluff, especially if he's raising that flop a lot. Essentially the only way to bluff here is to threebet the flop, and you should be doing that with a lot of your range I think. Especially since you can build an extremely favorable SPR with a small raise.
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Oh this is the comment i was looking for.
I think a better way to bluff is call flop and lead some amount on the turn. |
I agree that this line would also work, and I'm not sure which line would work the best, but I think this line is a bit more expensive as a bluff.
We could potentially 3bet to around $240 for $210 more on the flop. If we call the flop raise ($80 more), the pot on the turn is around $320, and we would probably have to donk at least like $150 or something, for a total of $230 more. Even $150 into $320 is somewhat small... so it would probably be a bit more expensive than that even.
The good thing about this line is that people would probably be less likely to rebluff with some sort of equity and only one card to come on the turn, than flop shipping.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
P4's theorem: Never b/c + c/c + c/c. Don't do it.
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Plz elaborate. And what's your line if hero has JJ here? |
I think if your hand is strong enough to take this line (passive oop stack-off), then it's strong enough to be played more aggressively in order to balance your bluffs and semi-bluffs. It might sometimes turn out to be the best line based on turn and river cards, villain bet sizing, timing tells, etc. But I would never look at my hand on the flop and plan to b/c + c/c + c/c.
A b/c on a dry board is not a bluff inducing play for sure, so passivity has little merit. I'm not saying the line is totally horrible, but there is usually a better way.
JJ on this board oop is tough. Something like b/f + b/f + b/f seems pretty sick with a bad image, but turn and river cards will have a bigger impact on your decision in this case.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Hmmm, the thing is your flop betting range is so polarized here, that you essentially need to find ways to bluff, especially if he's raising that flop a lot. Essentially the only way to bluff here is to threebet the flop, and you should be doing that with a lot of your range I think. Especially since you can build an extremely favorable SPR with a small raise.
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Oh this is the comment i was looking for.
I think a better way to bluff is call flop and lead some amount on the turn. |
I agree that this line would also work, and I'm not sure which line would work the best, but I think this line is a bit more expensive as a bluff.
We could potentially 3bet to around $240 for $210 more on the flop. If we call the flop raise ($80 more), the pot on the turn is around $320, and we would probably have to donk at least like $150 or something, for a total of $230 more. Even $150 into $320 is somewhat small... so it would probably be a bit more expensive than that even.
The good thing about this line is that people would probably be less likely to rebluff with some sort of equity and only one card to come on the turn, than flop shipping. |
From a money-value standpoint, you're absolutely right. But especially with some turn cards that will given him some equity, i think leading the turn makes it more likely that he'll bluff then CiBing the flop (maybe this is just a personal thing). Also, like CiBing, it's the only other bluff line that is going to guarantee building a pot.
I just never thought of this other option until yesterday.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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If you lead the turn, its such a goofy line you should probably just 100% bluff or 100% vbet it based on what level you think he would be on here/ what he thinks of you.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
If you lead the turn, its such a goofy line you should probably just 100% bluff or 100% vbet it based on what level you think he would be on here/ what he thinks of you.
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yeah but the beauty of it is depending on the flow it works great both ways.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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its amusing that you two are pretending to argue the finer points of this line when everyone knows you've already hammered it out via twin telepathy.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 834
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
its amusing that you two are pretending to argue the finer points of this line when everyone knows you've already hammered it out via twin telepathy.
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roflll...
Interesting thread tho.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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this is a really interesting spot but i dont see any strong reason to do anything other than call and check/call any turn
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
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I'm still kinda stumped as to why most people seem to think he has a substantially wide bluffing range here. Sorry to be cliché but he has to know that you have a much better chance of threatening his stack then he does yours and this is just a bad spot for him to bluff ever.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I'm still kinda stumped as to why most people seem to think he has a substantially wide bluffing range here. Sorry to be cliché but he has to know that you have a much better chance of threatening his stack then he does yours and this is just a bad spot for him to bluff ever.
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Deldar likes to put Pressure on his Opponents.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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For some people its hard to play on a board where they have a high cbet% when there are almost no draws present.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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For some people its hard to play on a board where they have a high cbet% when there are almost no draws present.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
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this seems like a really clear call flop/checkcall/checkcall
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
this seems like a really clear call flop/checkcall/checkcall
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agreed. i didnt want to speak out against this P4s theorem but now that sauce has spoken i will say that this is Definitely the best line vs deldar
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
this seems like a really clear call flop/checkcall/checkcall
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agreed. I didn't want to speak out against this P4s theorem but now that sauce has spoken i will say that this is Definitely the best line vs deldar |
I never said that this wasn't the best line for this spot, what I said was that (I think) you shouldn't (plan to) take it EVEN IF you think it is. If you disagree with THAT, I would be happy to hear you elaborate. My thoughts might very well be incorrect/suboptimal, so I would very much like to hear counter arguments.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
this seems like a really clear call flop/checkcall/checkcall
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\
Can you elaborate on range balancing on this flop in general? For nutsinho too.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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id balance my range in this spot by almost never 3betting or putting in any aggression unless the turn goes check/check
the main reason id 3bet flop or lead turn would be if i thought he would stick his stack in with close to no equity with a high frequency or if i thought he was bluffing and would not stick his whole stack in on that bluff
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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