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griffey24
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06-09-2008, 12:00 AM
Post subject: QQ - 5/10 170bb's deep... standard preflop decision?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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-This seems like a reasonably standard spot preflop with a strong hand that is near the top of our range but near the bottom of our range for stacking this deep
-villain in this hand 19/16/5 in this hand and is pretty tagg. My notes on him so far are that he doesn't seem to 3-bet very light and the only hands I've seen him 3-bet that have gone to showdown are KK/AK (over only 1k hands)
-Villain is a reg at my site but has recently changed his name so I don't have very strong reads on him. He probably has much stronger reads on me
-I feel as though if I'm 4-betting QQ against this particular villain, it would almost be with the intention of folding to a shove. .. which is almost like turning my hand into a bluff, and would fold out all hands worse than mine
-What's the best line here? flat OOP? 4-bet fold? 4-bet- call? or fold outright?
-sorry if this is standard, I have a strong ability at making huge mistakes deep!
Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
5 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $1000
Hero: $1672
Button: $1813.50
SB: $1251.50
BB: $916.61
Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with  
UTG folds, Hero raises to $40, Button raises to $140, 2 folds, Hero calls or raises ...
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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Well if I am 4-betting it certainly isn't to fold. My default is to call here.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I guess the reason I question this line is mostly cause I hate the idea of 4-bet/folding, but at the same time flatting this hand and playing deep OOP with a somewhat defined hand is very hard.
If villain is good, he knows that the best hand I have in this spot is QQ (or all worse pairs), since I will almost always 4-bet KK/AA in this spot, this deep.
He ends up in a very strong spot, where he could feasibly triple barrel bluff all-in this deep, and I will always have a horrible river decision no matter how nice the board looks.
I'm posting this hand because I've spoken to a few strong players, and they advocated 4-bet/folding. I disagreed saying that 4-bet folding here is turning my hand into a bluff, and folding out all their worse hands.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Cmon grif, we need to know YOUR stats/image also.
I don't really see the point in a 4bet vs this guy if you are playing solid TAG. Calling should show a profit since you are deep and he is aggro.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Call and play pokah. Don't know how you can 4bet and fold... how do you know AK isn't in his AI pre-flop range?
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The Odds God
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 252
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call. 4betting turns your hand into a bluff and you can rarely get someone to stack with JJ 150BB deep (for some reason people play like nits when deep) so you really need a sick image to 4bet/call.
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The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Sorry guys, also I said he 3-bets light in my OP when i fully meant to say tight.. though I guess that was illustrated by me saying i had only seen him 3-bet AK/KK.
It's really hard for me to perceive my image vs this guy. It was reasonably early in the session, or at least at a point where we hadn't played at each other at all yet.
If he is a reg that changed his name, he probably perceives me as pretty damn spewy/bluffy, who can definitely be 4-betting light this deep with like all sorts of nonsense. Otherwise, he probably thinks I'm just tagg.
Ok I was just making sure I wasn't losing my mind thinking 4-bet/folding is definitely not good here.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Ok I was just making sure I wasn't losing my mind thinking 4-bet/folding is definitely not good here.
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You weren't. There is too little difference between his 3-bet IP range and his preflop stack off range for a 4b/f to be good. AQo would be a std fold in this spot, perhaps even AKo. AQs would be close, but very few aggro regs are as tight with 3bets as you describe at this level. This is like std strat vs nits at 100NL.
That said, I wouldn't 4b/f QQ OOP vs any opponent ever. I would always call or 4b/c.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Thanks for the input guys, I know this is mostly a standard type of spot. Was just checking my 4b/not folding sanity 
I ended up 4b/calling, though reading the replies I feel like flatting OOP might be best, since I didn't perceive him as aggro enough to be pushing any hands that wouldn't be at worst flipping.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Given my feel of what opp thinks your fourbetting range is, definetely flat it.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I think if you can't felt this preflop then either you or villain has some serious leaks, but if his 3-betting range is that tight, it sounds like he does, so flat.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I think if you can't felt this preflop then either you or villain has some serious leaks, but if his 3-betting range is that tight, it sounds like he does, so flat.
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I agree with this 100bb's deep for sure. If I'm somehow doubting my ability to felt QQ for 100bb's pre, then obviously I'm playing too tight/straightforward. That's definitely not the case.
But do you really think this 170bb's deep? There are only a few opponents who I'd be fist pump felting QQ preflop against, this deep really.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
I think if you can't felt this preflop then either you or villain has some serious leaks, but if his 3-betting range is that tight, it sounds like he does, so flat.
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This is probably not true. Villain may have a small leak.
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