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Grand_MasterB
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05-24-2005, 03:37 PM
Post subject: MTT tourney hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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have to type it out for you guys since no hand history
a little setup: $150 MTT tourney, started with around 100 people so final table gets paid. down to 22 left. 8 people at my table. i have 2450 in chips with blinds at 100/200. about 5 other people at my table with a similiar stack..and 2 with much bigger (atleast double)
I am UTG+1.
Dealt to me :Ad: :Kd:
i raise to 600 total
everyone folds to the SB who thinks for a bit then goes all in. He was one of the big stacks and had about 6000 when this hand started.
Now he had been doing a decent amount of raising and taking pots down preflop with no contest since most of us were short stacked.
Do i make this call and put my tourney life on the line? I would really like to know what some of you think bc this is the situation i always seem to find myself in deep in a tourney just before the money.
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homerdash
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fairfax, VA (and Stars)
Posts: 212
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I'd lean towards calling but I think there's a chance that you're racing against a low pocket pair. Unless he thinks you're stealing with absolute trash, he's expecting a call here because 25% of your stack is already in the middle from early position.
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TanO
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 315
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I'd probably go for it, the only thing that may cool me off would be what position you in overall when this happens, if your remaining 1850 is enough to place you in the top 10 as it stands which I'm assuming its not then maybe, maybe wait until you can see a flop, otherwise you have to play it to give yourself a very good chance to make the final table.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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you HAVE to call this.
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DWDuck
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Canada eh?
Posts: 178
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An aggressive big stack will do this with a pocket pair or a couple high cards (AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ)... I think worst case you're a coin flip, but there's also a chance you have him dominated. The pot is giving you great odds given your chances... I think it's an auto-call.
Darkwing
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Grand_MasterB
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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well i called and he turned over :Kc: :Ks:
and when my ace didnt fall i was out
i dont play many tourneys but am starting to get more into them. if this was a cash game scenario and i was short stacked at the table i would call this without hesitation because i can always reload. But im having trouble knowing when to committ all my chips towards the end of a big tourney
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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One question: had he been thinking for similar amounts of time every time he made a play like this? If so, then definitely call. That late in the tourney, a big stack may well come over the top with any ace based on the gap concept and your fear of leaving the tournament.
Ironically, the only thing that makes me question it is his hesitation. It seems to me that he may have been trying to give the impression he was weak and stealing in order to get you to call. Again, the accuracy of this read is questionable at best, but it's something to consider.
Note: I'm far from an MTT expert. Just my .02
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
One question: had he been thinking for similar amounts of time every time he made a play like this? If so, then definitely call. That late in the tourney, a big stack may well come over the top with any ace based on the gap concept and your fear of leaving the tournament.
Ironically, the only thing that makes me question it is his hesitation. It seems to me that he may have been trying to give the impression he was weak and stealing in order to get you to call. Again, the accuracy of this read is questionable at best, but it's something to consider.
Note: I'm far from an MTT expert. Just my .02
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Yeah, I'm coming to think that I've developed some ability to read delays on a subconscious level. Its always much harder for me to give what I think is an accurate read in hand histories than when watching a table, and similarly its harder to explain plays of mine as well when refering to a hand history of mine.
But needless to say, this would still be a very hard laydown even with a read, considering your stack size. I'd only fold if I considered it very likely he had AA or KK, for some reason or another.
One thing to consider though is that I believe people with JJ or TT usually shove in immediately when they reraise since they really don't want calls in situations like this (and you said he thought for a bit before shoving), and you have to think that he has a real hand here since you raised from early position. If you were on the button, you have to call any raise because they're likely to believe that you were just stealing. Here, he expects a call and is still shoving, so it is concerning.
But like I said, still a very tough laydown to make. I can't really say if I'd have folded or called without being at the table.
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Grand_MasterB
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
Yeah, I'm coming to think that I've developed some ability to read delays on a subconscious level. Its always much harder for me to give what I think is an accurate read in hand histories than when watching a table, and similarly its harder to explain plays of mine as well when refering to a hand history of mine.
But needless to say, this would still be a very hard laydown even with a read, considering your stack size. I'd only fold if I considered it very likely he had AA or KK, for some reason or another.
One thing to consider though is that I believe people with JJ or TT usually shove in immediately when they reraise since they really don't want calls in situations like this (and you said he thought for a bit before shoving), and you have to think that he has a real hand here since you raised from early position. If you were on the button, you have to call any raise because they're likely to believe that you were just stealing. Here, he expects a call and is still shoving, so it is concerning.
But like I said, still a very tough laydown to make. I can't really say if I'd have folded or called without being at the table.
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Michael.... how do you deal with making these reads on hesitation delays when a short delay (about 4 or 5 seconds as in this case) could easily be attributed to multi tabling?
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB
how do you deal with making these reads on hesitation delays when a short delay (about 4 or 5 seconds as in this case) could easily be attributed to multi tabling?
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That's where comparing how he's previously played comes in to the mix. If you've noticed him waiting like that a lot, you can't draw any conclusions from it. If you haven't, then use the delay as part of your decision.
Michael made a good point about him reraising your UTG raise. That says something as well, assuming he's an aware player.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB
Michael.... how do you deal with making these reads on hesitation delays when a short delay (about 4 or 5 seconds as in this case) could easily be attributed to multi tabling?
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Like I've said, I don't really analyze delays conciously, but at some times, during key moments of big hands, I do pick up on some stalls that are forced or stalls that are really thinking about what to do with their hand.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Michael made a good point about him reraising your UTG raise. That says something as well, assuming he's an aware player.
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In a $150 MTT on Stars, assume everyone is at least knowledgable enough to know to respect UTG raises, until they prove otherwise, and then make a note in their profile. But still, the question here isn't really does the opponent have a real hand, that should be basically assumed, its really about narrowing the possibilities from AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ, TT, and AQ. If he only would possibly have AA, KK, QQ, or AK in this scenario, it may be best to fold. If you can eliminate QQ based on his delay, you basically have to fold.
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