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pocketfours
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06-04-2007, 11:09 AM
Post subject: Loose flop calls in reraised pots HU
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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I see all-in calls on the flop with low pairs in reraised HU pots all the time, but used to think it's a pretty donkish play. Yesterday witnessed the same while watching a HS HU game.
Is this standard play in loose HU games?
I usually don't make these calls, but perhaps I should give them more consideration? Pot odds are pretty decent here, but not even close to correct against a higher pair.
Dealt to BB [ 7C,9D ]
Ongame Texas Hold'em $100-$100 NL{spam link}(Real Money)
Table Isfahan,{spam link}3 Jun 2007 8:38 PM ET
Seat{spam link}3:{spam link}BB{spam link}($9,799{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}7:{spam link}BUTTON{spam link}($16,361.05{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
BUTTON posts blind ($50), BB posts blind ($100).
PRE-FLOP
BUTTON bets $300, BB bets $1,250, BUTTON calls $1,000.
FLOP [board cards 8H,3D,7H ]
BB bets $2,100, BUTTON bets $15,011.05 and is all-in,
BB calls $6,349 and is all-in.
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Reidak
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 566
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I bet you these two guys have thousands of hands of history together. Its no longer ever about the cards -- hes probably calling with bottom pair if he has the other guy on a bluff.
Trust me.. watching high stakes HU has nothing to do with the low stakes you play at. At the low stakes the cards matter the most. Here its all about reads and past experience.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I mean wow idk that anyone here is qualified to give advice at this level.
I don't like the threebet pre because i dont like calling here.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I like how you played it besides the preflop reraise.
It would be nice to have reads and history though. I'm guessing if you reraised 97 there you've been RRing a lot. Which means you pretty much have to call the flop push if the opponent is loose and aggressive. This could easily be an underpair as well as a semi bluff or pure bluff.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jishu
Trust me.. watching high stakes HU has nothing to do with the low stakes you play at. At the low stakes the cards matter the most. Here its all about reads and past experience.
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Uh oh, speak for yourself. I don't play low stakes, that's also why I posted this here, so I could get some comments from other high stakes players...
And you trust me friend, whenever you are calling all-in bets, your cards DO matter, whatever the stakes.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I mean wow idk that anyone here is qualified to give advice at this level.
I don't like the threebet pre because i dont like calling here.
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Yes, let's not try to give advice here. I just wanted to discuss the concept in general and wanted to show an example.
I think the preflop 3-bet is pretty standard in a loose HU game though. The size is oddly large, but I'm sure there was some reasoning behind that, such as history related.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
I like how you played it besides the preflop reraise.
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Well thanks, but it wasn't me 
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
It would be nice to have reads and history though. I'm guessing if you reraised 97 there you've been RRing a lot. Which means you pretty much have to call the flop push if the opponent is loose and aggressive. This could easily be an underpair as well as a semi bluff or pure bluff.
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Folding is just so unpopular nowadays...  Good point massimo, although in HS HU, reraising ranges are always very wide. I'm still not very convinced about this call...
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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It's an interesting call, and given the drawyness of the flop I can see why it was made.
Yet, isn't BB mostly either a bit ahead or way behind? Would Button make that push with anything less than a couple of overs?
Also, I've been wondering this a lot.. How much would it change our possiblilty of calling if it was a rainbow flop? What about if we had the 9h instead of the 9d?
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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If BU's range is *very* wide I guess we can call. I don't think we can every be really happy about it. We need like 40% equity (to be happy, I think 0 EV is like 35%)
If we are behind we usually have ~23% equity. If he has overs then we have like 75%.
Draws we are about 50-50, maybe a little better.
Cancelling draws and sets/2p - roughly we need him to have overs almost as often has he has TP+. If he has like 66 we are in great shape, but this is mostly cancelled by the times he has a 7 and better kicker (bad).
I guess it's not as bad as that, becuse even with 42% equity is this an easy call. Break even I guess is maybe:
25% draws + sets + 2 pair
50% 1 pair ahead of us
25% overs/lower pair
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
If BU's range is *very* wide I guess we can call. I don't think we can every be really happy about it. We need like 40% equity (to be happy, I think 0 EV is like 35%)
If we are behind we usually have ~23% equity. If he has overs then we have like 75%.
Draws we are about 50-50, maybe a little better.
Cancelling draws and sets/2p - roughly we need him to have overs almost as often has he has TP+. If he has like 66 we are in great shape, but this is mostly cancelled by the times he has a 7 and better kicker (bad).
I guess it's not as bad as that, becuse even with 42% equity is this an easy call. Break even I guess is maybe:
25% draws + sets + 2 pair
50% 1 pair ahead of us
25% overs/lower pair
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Ok, so it looks like this call is more or less EV 0 in the long run. Do we then do this so that we have a calling station image?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
I think 0 EV is like 35%
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Yes, about 35% is EV 0 and coincidentally that's very close to his equity in this hand. BUTTON had 9hTh for open ended straight flush draw and two overs (19 outs, which I guess is theoretical max). BB hit a set (7) on the turn, but BUTTON got his flush on the river.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
Ok, so it looks like this call is more or less EV 0 in the long run. Do we then do this so that we have a calling station image?
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Well, I guess it would depend on whether you want him to bluff you more or less then he does typicallly. Theoretically, if he "bluffs too much" then you should actually fold to encourage him. If he "bluffs too infrequently" you want to call to encourage this mistake. I say theoretically because I derive this from NLT&P, not from any actual experience. Stakes I play have little metagame.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
Well, I guess it would depend on whether you want him to bluff you more or less then he does typicallly. Theoretically, if he "bluffs too much" then you should actually fold to encourage him. If he "bluffs too infrequently" you want to call to encourage this mistake. I say theoretically because I derive this from NLT&P, not from any actual experience. Stakes I play have little metagame.
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Sounds right. Well I'm sure that even at LS some players mark their opponents as 'calling stations' very quickly and reduce their bluffing frequency, or vice versa. HU is of course all about metagame.
Thanks for your comments zenbits.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I dont think the call is interesting at all, this is one of the better flops we can hit, and if the game is played this loosely it's not like he's folding a lot of flops.
The interesting part is preflop, which i really dont like with a loose image. But idk, i wish gabe and aces and sauce would chime in.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I dont think the call is interesting at all, this is one of the better flops we can hit, and if the game is played this loosely it's not like he's folding a lot of flops.
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I think if the EV is close to 0 then it's interesting by definition. Do you disagree with this, or do you think it's clearly +EV (which means he has a worse pair/draw > 50% of the time)
Quote:
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The interesting part is preflop, which i really dont like with a loose image. But idk, i wish gabe and aces and sauce would chime in.
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Good point - although if image was tight this is fine as a gear-changer. Maybe it's a catch-22... you can't have a loose image if you don't make plays like this!
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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if there has been tons of re-raising PF button has to play back which BB knows. you guys should do some equity calculations before saying how crazy this call is. high stakes HU hands depend sooooooo much on the flow of the game..
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I dont think the call is interesting at all, this is one of the better flops we can hit, and if the game is played this loosely it's not like he's folding a lot of flops.
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I think if the EV is close to 0 then it's interesting by definition. Do you disagree with this, or do you think it's clearly +EV (which means he has a worse pair/draw > 50% of the time) |
If your planning on threebetting 97 preflop and folding to a shove on this flop in a loose HU game I think you're being retarded. I think the call isn't clearly +EV, it seems really close. Opp needs to be shoving air here a good amount i would think for us to call. I assume hero in this hand is much better than me and has a much better feel for the HU match than me.
Quote:
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The interesting part is preflop, which i really dont like with a loose image. But idk, i wish gabe and aces and sauce would chime in.
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Good point - although if image was tight this is fine as a gear-changer. Maybe it's a catch-22... you can't have a loose image if you don't make plays like this![/quote]
You have to change gears in heads up matches where your opponents are perceptive.
If opp is shoving a shitload here, which i assume he is, that this is an easy call, if hes not than its and easy fold. If it's somewhere in the middle than it's really tough but if it is somewhere in the middle i find it odd that he was threebetting 97o, assuming the guy is looking him up light in position.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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I am currently a measly .25/.50 FR NL player, but this looks incredibly standard, even the 3bet. At HS HU, BTN should be semi-bluffing here often. The most important factor here, obviously, is game flow and and player images/tendencies. OP states the game is loose; so there you have your answer.
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