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IowaSkinsFan
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06-09-2010, 04:31 PM
Post subject: Live hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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10 handed, 5k 6 max event. UTG is David Benefield, who has just been playing nitty and straightforward, opening very little and 3betting almost none. UTG +1 is 35-40 year old dude seemingly from LA, has surprisingly opened a lot but has not 3bet that much, but certainly not as low frequency as some old nit.
Effective stacks 19k. 100/200 blinds.
Bene opens UTG to 600, LA dude looks at his cards, and in about 8 seconds raises to 1600. Folded to me in HJ. I have KK. I look at LA dude and hes not even looking at me, refusing to pay attention to any other action. He also seems extremely tense.
I call the 1600. Thoughts?
Everyone else folds, Benefield calls.
Flop comes 874 rainbow. Benefield checks, LA dude semi quickly bets 2800. I look at Benefield and its unclear whether he is thinking of continuing or not, he certainly doesn't look like he is going to snap fold.
I call/raise/fold?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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id probably play the same and now call again
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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bleh, hate this spot. i think your best play is calling on every street so far, and then likely calling most bets from the old guy and folding to anything aggro- looking from raptor. you really have to make a read here though, stacks are very tough for ur hand. id gut it out on the turn, and fold to some betsizes, at least we are in position...
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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and that being said, i havent played many live trnys, so this might be a snap calldown/ expect to see garbage 40% of the time, TT-QQ 20% and AA 30% or whatever...
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i like calling a bunch, hard to raise anywhere and be confident worse is giving you action
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I Fold
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Yah I'd pretty much call here 100%. Never folding and can't imagine raising here.
Pre I'd only 4bet if I had been playing pretty spewy, or if I knew old guy was the type to call all re-raises.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Sorry I noticed a typo this is 10 handed not 6 max.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Pre seems very standard.
I think folding the flop is a pretty cool play tbh. Partly because of tourney EV math, partly because a call will define your range too much with two streets left to play (against competent opponents) and partly because raptor is still left to act and could have slowplayed aces.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Pre seems very standard.
I think folding the flop is a pretty cool play tbh. Partly because of tourney EV math, partly because a call will define your range too much with two streets left to play (against competent opponents) and partly because raptor is still left to act and could have slowplayed aces.
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This post just made me want to note something else: Raptor called very very quickly. I would be very surprised if he did this with AA.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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You probably didn't act very fast yourself so he had plenty of time to make a plan. Aces should benefit the most from a quick call so I wouldn't discount it too much as we are talking about a very competent player.
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
id probably play the same and now call again
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this for me.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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For the players who are saying call the flop (or possibly even further), what range to you assign the reraiser?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld
For the players who are saying call the flop (or possibly even further), what range to you assign the reraiser?
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Per my live $5/$10 and $10/$20 LA experience with guys like the one described. (Not sure how the tourney dynamic plays into his mindset.):
This a bluff like 10-15% of the time (live poker is boring and sometimes people just go off randomly and unexpectedly), but it's usually QQ+/AK. He's certainly going to c-bet AK here a lot, not many people are that passive without giving you a read. It's probably not serious money yet given how deep the stacks are.
If he gave you Hollywood or any kind of weakness that you're not 100% certain is legit weakness, snap fold the flop! His quick bet is him acting strong and probably of the mindset he was just going to bet the flop regardless so you can't discount his bluffs because of it.
I peel, although having Raptor in the pot sucks and if it's a fold, then maybe it's because he's sick enough to squeeze since our hand is so bloody face-up.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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ISF, after thinking about this some more. Do you think he thinks that your flat of his re-raise is super-strong? Did he even think about it or is he totally on auto-pilot after chips went in? That should tell you a lot about how he'll play worse hands than KK here.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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good posts fnord
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
ISF, after thinking about this some more. Do you think he thinks that your flat of his re-raise is super-strong? Did he even think about it or is he totally on auto-pilot after chips went in? That should tell you a lot about how he'll play worse hands than KK here.
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He totally auto piloted the flop cbet. Honestly, he did not seem to be interested in what I was going to do vs his preflop 3bet even though I was clearly thinking about it.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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You guys may be surprised to hear I folded. I know its a generally absurd fold, but basically everything I saw in every action made me think AA. The bet sizing, what he looked like, how he was acting. Now I didn't see anything like a total act to feign weakness, or something that would undoubtedly show he had AA, but a lot of little things.
As one example, not paying attention to what I'm doing is huge to me. If he has QQ or AK, doesn't he have some concern for whats going on? Basically, everything he is doing in the hand is exactly what I think someone would do with AA.
Am I just putting too much confidence in my read here? There weren't really any other tells besides the ones I said unless there was some tell I was subconsciously picking up on.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
As one example, not paying attention to what I'm doing is huge to me. If he has QQ or AK, doesn't he have some concern for whats going on? Basically, everything he is doing in the hand is exactly what I think someone would do with AA.
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AK doesn't care because he's going to bet the flop regardless unless he thinks he needs to hit. Air don't care. AA doesn't care. KK might, QQ/JJ usually looks at the flop.
Figure he's some guy who's read a few poker books, plays somewhat TAggy, reasonable (if looseish out of position) hand selection and fires the first barrel a lot. Probably plays in his spare time and makes his money with a non-poker job. His big weaknesses are going to be poor hand reading (like putting you on QQ/JJ/TT/AK/AQ here) and not being comfortable betting non-nut hands for value on the river (particularly with lots of money in the pot) unless he's of the uncommon breed that just doesn't give a flying fuck about his stack.
Fun spot.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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u gotta at least call 1
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
u gotta at least call 1
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Yeah I think so to. I agree with fnord that he has air a percentage of the time and he's gonna just auto bet that along with AK or AQ type if he has it. Its gonna be really easy to play on the turn and river since I never expect to get barreled by worse.
Folding isn't really that bad though given I'm c/f turn and river.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meeloche
I never expect to get barreled by worse.
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Never is a very strong word. I agree that he'll hit the breaks more often than not or at least make a small turn bet that doesn't apply much pressure and defines his range.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Pre seems very standard.
I think folding the flop is a pretty cool play tbh. Partly because of tourney EV math, partly because a call will define your range too much with two streets left to play (against competent opponents) and partly because raptor is still left to act and could have slowplayed aces.
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Being a little nitpicky here but Aces seem like not better than the 6th most likely holding for raptor if he has a better hand than us, even absent of the read danny picked up
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Quote:
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Being a little nitpicky here but Aces seem like not better than the 6th most likely holding for raptor if he has a better hand than us, even absent of the read danny picked up
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Yeah that's likely true. I didn't mean to imply that we always have him beat if he doesn't have aces.
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c-luvin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 159
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fold pre or call at least one bet on this kind of flop
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