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Iwind
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02-19-2006, 12:29 PM
Post subject: Income
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 436
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This has probably been asked before, but I couldn't find the treads when I made a quick search. I have heard of people making like 100k a year multitabling 200NL. I'm not asking for anyones income, but I am interessed in hearing what you estimate the best high stake cash games players on the net make in a year. I'm talking about 5/10 and up.
I am sure the winrate for the best players is reduced quite a lot amoving up in stakes, 12-15PT BB/100 somewhere is probably the max at 200NL I guess, how would you say this changes when moving up?
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DoGGz
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Lets do some math.
6bb/100 8 tabling 5/10 6max. The best players could do this, and they probably would move up even to 10/20. Lets say we play for 4 hours per day, during the good hours, that's it. 28 hours of play per week. A 6max table is about 90 hands per hour.
90 hands * 8 tables * 4 hours = 2880 hands per day. At a winrate of 6bb/100, which is $60 per 100 hands, this = $1728 per day.
$1728 per day
$12,096 per week
$51,840 per month
$630,720 per year
This is a realistic goal for a good player.
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DoGGz
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The best online players make over a million per year.
just post whoring to 1000!
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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there are 5 longterm 5bb/100 winners on party 1knl, 6 isn't realistic. However its pretty easy to make 100k a year.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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doggz is a little generous with his estimations. I would say a good player can do 4bb/100 4 tabling 5-10 6 max. So you do the numbers.
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Iwind
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 436
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I see, well still it is a real nice income for sure, lets work 5 hours a day with 4bb/100 then:
4 tables
90/hour
5 hours
Hands/day: 1800
Income/day: $720
Month: $21,600
Year: $259,200
Still real nice I'd say.
How many players do you think earn $250+ a year then?
And those making more than a million, that must be very few I guess?
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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Very few making more than a million altho there are quite a few making 100K+ I mean if you can make 250k+ a year you are in the top .5%
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IOS
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: 100NL 6max
Posts: 84
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Now the question is, assumming you live in the US, do you have to pay taxes on your winnings? I mean it's kinda hard to make $100k a year without anyone knowing.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Just pay your damn taxes. Yes, you might be able to keep your poker winnings secret from the IRS if you tried to, but personally I'd rather not risk getting caught committing a felony. I'm thankful enough that I'm able to make a decent amount of money playing this game, no need to be greedy.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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how does taxing poker winnings work?
Do you have to factor in whether you are on an upswing at the end of the fiscal year or what? It seems like it would be difficult to come up with a concrete number for gross net earnings.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
how does taxing poker winnings work?
Do you have to factor in whether you are on an upswing at the end of the fiscal year or what? It seems like it would be difficult to come up with a concrete number for gross net earnings.
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Although I'm often wrong, I'm pretty sure you don't tax your earnings until you've moved your money from your poker site to your real bank account. Otherwise it's just like having your money in the casino. You wouldn't pay taxes on winnings there until you walked out with something. Leaving it on the website is just a REALLY long trip to the casino.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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so if you take no profits and just amass a ridiculous 100k bankroll w/o taking anything for yourself, its ok?
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
how does taxing poker winnings work?
Do you have to factor in whether you are on an upswing at the end of the fiscal year or what? It seems like it would be difficult to come up with a concrete number for gross net earnings.
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Although I'm often wrong, I'm pretty sure you don't tax your earnings until you've moved your money from your poker site to your real bank account. Otherwise it's just like having your money in the casino. You wouldn't pay taxes on winnings there until you walked out with something. Leaving it on the website is just a REALLY long trip to the casino. |
It is 100% the oppositeffo this. It is earnings even if you haven't taken it out of whatever site u play at. I mean it is higly unlikely anyone would ever find out that it was there, but technically it should be taxed.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Renton,
If you're making enough money playing poker that you need to worry about taxes, you should start keeping a diary and record all your wins and losses carefully. That's the only way you're going to know what your net income is.
Also, anyone with common sense would not keep a 100K bankroll online. People have lost their whole bankroll to hackers and there's nothing you can do to get it back. Just to be careful I always cash out $1000 as soon as my PokerStars account gets above $2500. I can always re-deposit if I have to. The high-stakes guys are going to need to keep more money online than I do, but anyone who regularly has more than 10K in a poker account is nuts IMO.
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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I won $8,000 in a B&M tourney a couple years ago and I had to fill out a W99. That's the only year I claimed my poker income, I umm......... estimated my winnings for that yeat to be $11,000. I found out that if you consider yourself to be a "proffessional poker player" you would pay the same taxes as any sef-employed individual. However if you consider yourself to be a "recreational poker player", you pay taxes on "gambling income" which is considerably less, 7% I believe. I consider myself to be a recreational player who has been very lucky and won consistantly for the last 6 years. Maybe one day my incredible lucky streak will end and I'll have to get a job.
I was married at the time and my wife didn't work so I was able to declare the $11,000 and still not have to pay anything in. Another thing that I've discovered is that any information about your income that is mailed to the IRS also has to be mailed to you, so if a poker site reported your income you'd know about it.
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{solicitation URL removed by Xianti}
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Renton,
If you're making enough money playing poker that you need to worry about taxes, you should start keeping a diary and record all your wins and losses carefully. That's the only way you're going to know what your net income is.
Also, anyone with common sense would not keep a 100K bankroll online. People have lost their whole bankroll to hackers and there's nothing you can do to get it back. Just to be careful I always cash out $1000 as soon as my PokerStars account gets above $2500. I can always re-deposit if I have to. The high-stakes guys are going to need to keep more money online than I do, but anyone who regularly has more than 10K in a poker account is nuts IMO. |
I am speaking a little ahead. At this point I am a breakeven player at best. I am working on a master plan to bonus whore 16k in 12 weeks though.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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I am speaking a little ahead. At this point I am a breakeven player at best. I am working on a master plan to Bonus whore 16k in 12 weeks though.
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WTF? Hopefully you mean 1.6k.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I am working on a master plan to bonus whore 16k in 12 weeks though.
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WOW, care to share that plan  I hope you make it, that would be awsome.
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Stripclubjunkie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Stripclubs
Posts: 1,293
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Quote:
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I am speaking a little ahead. At this point I am a breakeven player at best. I am working on a master plan to Bonus whore 16k in 12 weeks though.
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WTF? Hopefully you mean 1.6k. |
Would like to hear a little more about this MasterPlan if you mean 16k$...
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IOS
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: 100NL 6max
Posts: 84
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Does anyone else have a problem with keeping more than 5k in their online bankroll? Personally, I feel safe with my money in a pokersite. I understand about hackers and all, but if that was the case I would not purchase anything online. I purchase a lot of stuff over the internet. If I was concerned about hackers getting my personal information, I would not send my credit info over the net. So basically what I'm saying is, am I an idiot for keeping my money in a pokersite, only cashing out a minimal amount? Please post your opinions, as I would like to see what all you "high stakes" players have to say about it.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I'd rather keep the money in Neteller. That company seems very legit and concerned about security. I did a transfer to a friend and we were on the same network at work. They locked my account for security reasons until I called up and explained. If you need money in your account, it takes 5 minutes to transfer in. I'd keep it in a place you feel secure with until then.
You guys don't know about the 16k in 12 weeks plan? Oh...everyone is doing it. It's so simple. Renton - unless you have a way to do the Martins bonus over and over, I don't see this as a reasonable goal. But maybe you'll share the plan.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
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I am speaking a little ahead. At this point I am a breakeven player at best. I am working on a master plan to Bonus whore 16k in 12 weeks though.
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WTF? Hopefully you mean 1.6k. |
Would like to hear a little more about this MasterPlan if you mean 16k$... |
I mean 16k. I have typed out a grand scheme of bonus whoring every site on bonuswhores.com and as long as I can keep decent winrates (7-10bb for 25nl, and 1.5-3bb for limit), at 30hrs/week four-tabling each site for their signup bonuses 1 by 1, it seems almost possible that I can make this goal.
I am starting tonight with 500 and should be done whoring Party and Empire by end of week, which should bring me to around 1200.
If you guys want, I'll start up a thread and you can follow me on my magical journey. (It'd be great if it worked out!)
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Phantaroth
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 505
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Yes but what if you fuck up and lose all yer money sir? That would be a very suck ass journey to follow you on. 
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phantaroth
Yes but what if you fuck up and lose all yer money sir? That would be a very suck ass journey to follow you on. |
I will be playing limit so at the very worst, I'd just not win, and miss my goal.
It takes a real long time to lose all your money playing limit, if you are using correct BR management.
At any rate, it would still be an interesting Journey even if I lost all my money, right? Every good gambling story includes tragedy.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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30 hrs/week 4-tabling. Ok, that should help. Be weary of cashout lag between sites - which could cut into your time. I think a thread would be great - post it in the Online Poker Rooms forum. I assume you plan to move up limits as you progress since many bonuses take forever at 25NL? Seems like an ambitious goal but even if you only make it half way there, it's great. Good luck.
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Phantaroth
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 505
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Oh did not notice it was limit!!!
Good luck!
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
30 hrs/week 4-tabling. Ok, that should help. Be weary of cashout lag between sites - which could cut into your time. I think a thread would be great - post it in the Online Poker Rooms forum. I assume you plan to move up limits as you progress since many bonuses take forever at 25NL? Seems like an ambitious goal but even if you only make it half way there, it's great. Good luck.
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Only gonna do 25nl at Party and Empire.
Everywhere else I am gonna do limit and move up in limit stakes whenever I have like 500 or 600BB. The lag will suck early but thankfully I have a decent real job, so I can borrow and put back from my bank account while I am waiting for cashouts to clear, and once I hit around 3k, I will have enough to whore at multiple sites at once, so no worries then.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Some sites take very very long to clear. ie. Eurobet. Keep that in mind
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
Some sites take very very long to clear. ie. Eurobet. Keep that in mind |
Yep, I am planning on spending about a week and a half on it alone. Roughly 10k hands.
The one I am least anticipating is Purple Lounge. It will take me around 20000 hands at 1/2 to clear it. But its a 1k bonus so...
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